Subject: Queensryche, Amway and all things in between... Wed, 17 Dec 1997 OK, really nothing in between, just Queensryche and Amway. :-) [Material snipped about Queensryche, the world's greatest band] An interesting bit of info for you on Amway... it seems that one of the high-level diamonds, Brig Hart, has filed a lawsuit against his upline. The suit alleges that approximately 2/3 of the money a Diamond gets is a "kick back" or "bulk deal" on the tools... however, it has always been an "unofficial" payment, with nothing in writing. For some reason, Mr. Hart was cut out of this and is more than slightly upset. He says that this is how things have always been done, so it's owed to him even if it isn't in writing. What this does is expose Amway as a true pyramid scheme. Tools are something only usable within the line of sponsership, and cannot be sold outside of the group.... thus, whoever is at the end of the chain is stuck with something with no re-slae value whatsoever. It's always stressed to you in the beginning that there is no profit to be made in selling the tools. One other thing that you might want to add to your page for the benefit of anyone looking for more info before getting sucked into Amway - they really like to hype the "willable and inheritable income" part of the plan. This is the part where they say that after you reach a certain level, you can will your bonuses to your children or whomever, and know that they will be taken care of. What Amway doesn't bother telling you, though, is that the person you will the bonus to has to sign up as a distributor and take over your business and maintain whatever level of sales were required to earn the bonus in the first place. So much for taking care of your 10-year old kid if you were to die unexpectedly, huh? Ryche & Roll, *****
Subject: Finished your Amway story... Thu, 18 Dec 1997 Amway cost me my best friend, confidant, big brother figure, and #1 drinking buddy from college. He got out of school a few years before I did and was sposored into Amway by another engineer at General Dynamics (now Lockheed) in Fort Worth, Texas. I was shown the plan while still in college and signed on with the understanding that I was going to finish my engineering degree that was one year away, then start working the business. I bought some books and tapes, but didn't get on SOT. Went to some functions, but none of the biggies. Despite pressure from my best-friend-and-upline-sponsor to work the business, I figured the 4-year investment of time and money I made in my college education was more important at the time so it had a higher priority. The beginning of the end came for me during the summer of either 1990 or 1991. I had sponsored a friend from college into Amway, and he was much more enthusiastic than I was. Before too long, I didn't see much of my sponsor anymore, calls to him weren't returned, etc. The last straw came during that summer when the friend I sponsored was the one who told me my sponsor, my best friend before Awmay, had moved out of state. What makes it worse was that it would have been a LOCAL CALL for my sponsor to tell me. Two minutes to say "We're moving. Here's our new address and phone number" was all I would have wanted, even if left on the answering machine. I saw my sponsor a few years later at a college reunion function and privately asked him why he didn't call me to tell me he was moving, and that I hoped that I was more that just another Amway cold contact prospect to him. His reply was that he was a businessman with a lot of people to call, and that people who weren't in business with him were on a lower priority to get called, and I must have fallen through the cracks. In retrospect, since I wasn't making money for him at the time, I guess I wasn't even his friend any more. I maintained my distributorship in name only for a few more years debating whether or not to reactivate it. I guess the real reason I kept sending in my renewal fee was to get Amagram to see whether or not he had acheived any level of recognition within Amway. I finally dropped it for good in 1993 or 1994. After some 5 or so years in Amway, I couldn't find even a record of him reaching silver producer level by that time.... and he was "core" all the way... went to all the functions and all the night owls, read all the books, listened to all the tapes, dressed and talked the part completely.... but it took him over 5 years to reach silver, if he has even reached it yet. Still, I hope he makes millions. I hope he's retired by now. I hope he gets everything out of it that he wants. So Doug, if you stumble across this whether it's in your retirement or whether it's from your J.O.B., drop me a line.
Subject: New Anti-Amway Site Thu, 18 Dec 1997 Right now it is a mainly a collection of links. However, in the future, we hope to add some original essays. The address is: http://www.infidels.org/activist/current/rrr/amway/position-amway.html
Subject: Amway Fri, 19 Dec 1997 Hello. My name is *****. My wife and I were Amway distributors fof three years. (This year being the last. I won't renew.) And I just wanted to thank you for your site and quickly share with you some of my thoughts regarding Amway. First, the reason I'm quiting is because I finally reached my rope's end with my up-line. My wife and I decided to have her stop working and come home to be a full-time mother to our 3 year-old. I needed to cut costs and trim my budget so I called my sponser to cansel my S.O.T. My sponser gave me heck. He said tha it would take 4 weeks to cansel and I would just have wait. But in the mean time I hould think it over. B.S.!!!!! I will never have anything to do with Amway again! Sincerely, ***** (Winner by definition,ex-Amway cult member. Ummmmmmm Ummmmmm)
Subject: Your Amway page... Fri, 19 Dec 1997 Hey! Thank you very much for the info, a Amway representative a "friend" Actually someone who usually would not give me the time of day, was at our house today. I was pumped up with enthusiasm, until I decided to "surf" the net on the subject and found you. Thanks!
Subject: amway page... Fri, 19 Dec 1997 Hey Russell, Your Amway page was such a trip that I felt compelled to drop you a note. Like you, I graduated this past year in June from the Univ. of Michigan (almost went to UCSD 'cause the campus is nice) and am working at a start-up. I've already been approached by two people to join Amway (or more specifically, Worldwide Dream Builders.) Thought it was interesting but didn't really go for the "spend lots of time now to build your business, so you can have lots of time later and retire early" deal. By the time I would be done building my business, my friends would be gone, well, except maybe my up and downline. The weirdest thing that struck me was the amount of support materials they wanted me to get, and I hadn't even joined yet. Granted, they would give a few to me on the house, so I wouldn't have to shell out money. Actually, the couple that wanted me as part of their downline were pretty nice; it might've been an elaborate facade, but I think that they were genuinely friendly but were involved in the wrong business. The pervasive drive of getting money is a little freaky too; the clone-like personalities of everyone is also funny. Strange how a couple million people are in this business. Maybe if I have the time, which is unlikely, I'll join and see what all these events are all about and try and save a couple of people from the fires of Amway. A noble thought but unlikely to come to pass. Anyway, good job on this page, and good luck with your career. And who knows, maybe you'll save a "Heather" that's more receptive to your message.
Subject: BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!! Fri, 19 Dec 1997 Hey Russell, I just sent this to Sidney, but I realized that since Amway has alledgedly threatened to squash him like a cockroach, it may never get to a letters page. Could you throw this up when you have the time :). I get a Product Alert subscription since I work for a company that produces consumer products. I thought you might enjoy this: (Nov 3, 1996 v.14, no.21 - On the Alert) "Once a best seller in the Korean Market, Amway Dish Drops Now Under Attack. Under the auspices of the Anti-Amway Committee, 82 Korean consumer groups and environmental activists published a list of charges against Amway, charging that the U.S. based company is misleading Korean consumers by advertising its products as environmentally-friendly and of improperly using the close ties between friends and neighbors in South Korean society to sell their goods. To support this, the group conducted tests which showed Amway's Dish Drops were less biodegradable than Korean products. As a result of these charges, about half of the distributors through which Dish Drops were available have discontinued distribution, and the Amway brand has experienced a 64 percent drop in sales, falling from 36 billion Won in January to 13 billion Won in August." Kinda warms your heart, doesn't it? If one of the mirror sites is putting up new material, please let me know which so I can send them a copy too. On your side against the Amborg, R And just because they may have squashed the main cockroach, it doesn't mean that dozens or hundreds more aren't going to come out of the wood work.
Subject: i feel i may be at risk. HELP Sat, 20 Dec 1997 I have spent over an hour reading your Amway responses, and have become concerned. I have been researching the "newest buisness opportunity of the 90's", Market America. I am hoping that you have information about them or know someone that does. They feel that they have improved on the Amway system with a 2 x infinity matrix, and are confident in thier product quality and prices. But I of course I need to know for sure before I feel like I can commit. I am paticularly interested in a Better Buisness Bureau web site that would be able to list any complaints about them. As well as any specifics about who thier market reasearch company is, and the methods that they use to insure that thier products will actually "sell themselves". Thank you for having such an informative page, it has provided be with lots of new questions to ask my would be sponsors. I have added it to my favorite places list.
Subject: Finished your Amway story... Sat, 20 Dec 1997 Don't underestimate the service you are performing. Your account of surviving Amway's assault will benefit more people than you realize. Best of luck in your career from a fellow programmer.
Subject: Your Amway page... Sun, 21 Dec 1997 Are you completely down on network marketing, or just Amway? Reason I ask is I really do not care for Amway, their products, or their distribution system. I don't see how anyone would want to drive to another persons home to pick up products. What the hell is the difference between that and going to the store? However, I think this is why most people bomb in Amway. I currently use natural products that do not have SLSs, aluminum, or Prp Glcl in them ---- since I am aware of the chemical consequences. I order these directly from this company. If I refer people to this company, I will be paid a commission. I don't know if I will take advantage of this, but I definately know that I won't have to hold goofy house meetings, rally's, and other wackky stuff. Don't let those inefficient, out-dated goofs rain on your parade ---- go start another business with a state-of-the-art company or start your own company. All the Best!!!!! Subject: Re: Your Amway page... Sun, 21 Dec 1997 > Are you completely down on network marketing, or just Amway? I believe network marketing to be base on a fundamentally flawed and misleading concept. Amway just happens to be the one that I chose to focus on. I've caught glimpses of Excel, Equinox, and others, and I think an MLM company does not make its base more solid by doing "high tech" things. Let me direct you to a web page somebody else wrote, which echoes my views on the broad concept of network marketing. The address is "http://www.best.com/~vandruff/mlm1.html". > Don't let those inefficient, out-dated goofs rain on your parade ---- go > start another business with a state-of-the-art company or start your own > company. I do not intend to let Amway "rain on my parade" as far as network marketing goes... I do not think it's a valid idea, so I don't do it. I have every intention of starting a real company someday.
Subject: Finished your Amway story... Sun, 21 Dec 1997 GREAT PAGE!!!!..I have never been in Amway or even solicited, but I am glad to see someone exposing it for the scam that it is.
Subject: Thanks Mon, 22 Dec 1997 Russ, a old "friend" of mine approached me about getting in Amway. Being a bit skeptical, I searched the web and found your enlightening story. Not only did my wife and I get a chuckle out of it, your story opened our eyes and helped us avoid making a mistake. Thanks for taking a stand for something that you believe in.
Subject: Someone please give me some help Tue, 23 Dec 1997 To Whom it May Concern, My name is ***** and I am 21 years old. Recently, a man named ***** came to my home and presented information about a company named "Excel Communications." The impression he gave was that this company was a "legal" pyramid. Larry told me that the first step towards progression in this company was to pay a fee of 220 dollars and to then get a certain number of people under me. I was told that i would make unbeleivably high amounts of money in a short time. I would only have to do two things. One thing i would be required to do is to get new customers to use "Excel Communications" as their long distance phone carrier. The other thing would be to attract new people to act as representatives(just as i would be if i joined). I have researched MLM's and pyramid schemes and i understand that they are destined to fail. I do not underdstand how this particular industry will fail though. If anyone can help to explain to me why a long distance carrier would not succeed in the industry of MLM, please respond to me and explain breifly. Thank you, in advance, for your time and consideration regarding this important matter.
As I always say... read the Vandruff page!
Subject: Your Amway story (part 3) Wed, 24 Dec 1997 Cool site! I wish I'd had Internet many years ago when I got involved with Amway. Luckily I found the "Cult of Free Enterprise" book before getting too deep into it and bailed out. In 8 years, I've never again heard from my "upline". Go figure. My first clue of the cult-like nature was when they told me I should stop reading the newspaper because I didn't need to know all that stuff!
Subject: Re: Your Amway page... Thu, 25 Dec 1997 Just a little advice . . . don't wait for someday to come, because more than likely it won't if you continue to wait. If you're young, like you sound, than find something you really like and go for it!!!!!! By the way, I am a 50% partner in my own company with my brother-in-law. We are merchant bankers providing corporate financial services to small and large companies. We also provide viatical investment programs for individual and group clients. It's very lucrative, but specialized. Most amazingly, I do extremely well and I am only 25 years of age. Best Wishes!!!!!!
Subject: You look just like me! Fri, 26 Dec 1997 Hey dude, I read your Amway page. Pretty scary what you went through. I have seen some amazing parallels in my life and yours: I am a computer programmer. I look just like you. I am 5 ft. 6 inches tall (close to your height). I am pretty close to your age, looks like. But scariest of all... I experienced a lot of the mind control techniques you went through, except in a different form: I met this gorgeous girl-neighbor in my apartment complex. I was immediately smitten with her. We dated and enjoyed each others company immensely. There was a negative, however. She was involved in a religion which I find completely bogus. She tried to "win" me over to the stuff. The same techniques were applied: Alienation, tearing down of all previous ideas and standards, gift-giving to implied obligation, mental and emotional "heavy-handling"... Your story amazingly paralleled what I went through. ...parties in peoples houses (Home Groups). Emotional meetings (spontaneous fainting and crying in 'worship' services), flattery (attention through individual prophecy),... All that stuff works. I don't mean to discount what you went through, but I had the added pressure of "You are disappointing God by not worshipping the correct way." Through some miracle, I managed to wrestle myself away. Somewhere, in the back of my mind, something was saying "That's Bull. Don't let yourself believe in this crap. Don't dive over the edge." I had to break off an engagement with this completely hot chick to do this. Plus, I had to de-program myself... But, I saved my life by doing this. You learned a valuable lesson. Please keep the Amway page up as long as you can.
Subject: interesting Fri, 26 Dec 1997 I will admit I did not take time to read all of your page but as I browsed through I am curious about the answer to one question. Please don't take the time to respond if it is somewhere in here - I will find time later to read the page entirely. You don't know me, so it's safe to say you don't have any REAL genuine concern for me and what I do with my life/future - so what does it matter to you if I join Amway or not? You may disagree entirely with my way of life, even my religion, but I don't see any posted opinions about how I should seriously consider the "other side" of what I am thinking about doing in those aspects of my life. I don't understand your motivation - what do you care about what I do and the company I may keep?
Subject: Finished your Amway story... Sat, 27 Dec 1997 Dear Russell-- Bravo on the exceedingly well-written and nicely designed web site! Good show! I have several relatives/friends in the Amway "business", and it is sad to watch as their pile of tapes/books/rally ticket stubs grows while their net worth is DECREASING. This is not a business -- this is a religion, a philosophy, a way of life. And it is so sad to see people I know and care about obsess over becoming rich, while their so-called business is all the while taking them further and further away from financial success. Keep up the good work! P.S. One of the other major Amway expose sights mentioned to me that Amway is engaging in heavy-handed scare tactics to shut down websites that are critical of the Kingdom of Amway. Have you had any experience along these lines? Any negative emails/harassment from Amway? I am curious and interested in participating in a constructive response/defense of Free Speech.
So far, no harassment from Amway Legal or anyone else. I'll keep people posted on this.
Subject: Your Amway story (part 2) Sun, 28 Dec 1997 I recently was invited to an Amway open night by my sister who had joined up with the co. after being taken to one such night by a brother. The talk given especially by a "diamond" who had just flewn in from overseas, was so uninformative a person would have to have an IQ of 1 to have been roped in, but I listened for my sister's sake. Afterwards we were invited to meet and talk with this guy at a restaurant nearby, and lo and behold, I was seated opposite. Conversation ensued, with people asking this fellow all about his wealth, visible jewellery, and lifestyle. My gut instinct told me, "hey, this feels like a set up!", but my other thoughts were, hey girl, I think you're getting paranoid. In the time, all of 5 hours, from the entry to the meeting, to the time I left to go home, no real information was given....I wanted real statistic, supportive information of their claims, and got nothing.....I didn't ask though, because something told me to just sit back and watch the show...........and that's exactly what it was. My sister's sponsors, a couple, and others, some who actually lived near me who I didn't know were involved with Amway, offered to come to see me with the usual speel associated with trying to get someone to join their group....the guise to help me get rich, and make a fortune in a few years. This was less than a week ago. I believed it was a con then, as all pyramid selling is, but after reading your story, I am assured, and I thankyou from the bottom of my heart for putting this info in the internet. Signed, Not taken in so easily Bacchus Marsh, Victoria, Australia.
Subject: Finished your Amway story... Sat, 27 Dec 1997 Russell, I read your story with interest. Until searching the web tonight I didn't know about Amway was so cult-like. Having been involved on the fringe of a cult myself 20 years ago (Church of Bible Understanding, in NYC), and done some reading on the subject, I really appreciated your story. It was very well-written. The descriptions of your mental states and your emotions were right on - I knew the same creepy feelings, and you have put them into words very well. Don't change a sentence - it's excellent.
Subject: YourAmwaystory(part2) 28 Dec 1997 02:33:47 Consider yourself flamed. You didn't even become a distributor, yet you say you know all about it. The introduction to the books provided by the educational program has helped me in my profession (other than Amway) more than the cost I paid. The products I have purchased have been excellent, with a single exception, which they rapidly made good on. The help I have received from my upline exceeds anything I have ever gotten from old friends, with the exception of church members, which have been exceedingly helpful as well. In fact, my upline is a member of my church. Subject: Re: YourAmwaystory(part2) Sun, 28 Dec 1997 > Consider yourself flamed. Actually in some ways I find your directness very refreshing, since I get a good many letters which are flames that disguise themselves in language like "Of course you are entitled to your opinion, and I don't want to insult you..." and then they do. So... thank you. > You didn't even become a distributor, yet > you say you know all about it. Yes, it's true that I say that. In some ways a person who has observed something is often more qualified to comment on it than one who has dived into it... consider a psychiatrist talking about alcoholism, compared to an alcoholic. > The introduction to the books provided > by the educational program has helped me in my profession (other than > Amway) more than the cost I paid. Well, I can respect the fact that you read good books. Good books can be read without a "system", but I don't want to belittle your experience. > The products I have purchased have > been excellent Obviously that's a matter of opinion... have you done any price comparisons? > , with a single exception, which they rapidly made good > on. The help I have received from my upline exceeds anything I have > ever gotten from old friends, with the exception of church members, > which have been exceedingly helpful as well. In fact, my upline is a > member of my church. Whether your upline has provided you with help or not is also, in some ways, open to interpretation. Has this "help" wound up making you a profit yet? After subtracting system expenditures?
Subject: Finished your Amway story... Sun, 28 Dec 1997 Dear Russell, BRAVO dude!!!! Your story was truly amazing and I know that THOUSANDS more people will be reading it. I too was approached by Amway people about three years ago. I almost fell for thier pitch but luckily, did some research and talked to some people I know, and learned the truth in time. My best friend however, did not. Unfortunately, she and her husband are still in Amway (almost three years now). They are still living in the same house, driving the same cars, and he is still working at the same job. HMMMMMM....?????? Gee, wish I would have spent tons of time and money in three years, trying to recruit people who are mostly uninterested, and going to meetings and conferences (5 hours from home) to be in exactly the same spot and making not even a penny more. Try to bring up up these things to them though and you'd think I told them Charles Manson was running to be the next Pope. Anyway, I have pretty much lost this friend. I can't stand hearing about "the business". It makes me want to puke. Anyway, think I'll go and let all my internet friends know about your page. KEEP THE STORY GOING!!!!!!!!!!
Subject: Your Amway page... Sun, 28 Dec 1997 Good Amway page. If you are interested I have created a new Amway page tilted "The Broke-Loser Family" page. This basically details my family's experience in the business. I have also put a link to your page on the site. Take care, Mr. Broke Loser Subject: Re: Your Amway page... Mon, 29 Dec 1997 Well, it might be nice if you would let me know the URL. ;)
Subject: Finished your Amway story... Mon, 29 Dec 1997 Very Interesting! We have had the same problems with my brother-in-law. He has totally alienated his family and friends. Through his shallow rhetoric, you can tell he is really a very unhappy person. I feel sorry for the day he finally realizes and faces the fact he as been a fool. I think that is the reason he and most others stay for so long in spite of utter failure, because they do not want to face being a total fool.
Subject: Equinox Tue, 30 Dec 1997 Love your page -- a story that needed to be told. I am a freelance journalist working on a magazine piece about Equinox International. Do you know anybody who has had experiences with this group who may be interested in talking about it? Thanks Subject: Re: Equinox Tue, 30 Dec 1997 Afraid I can't help you out there much... I do get the occasional letter from someone saying they were with Equinox, but I don't save the mailing addresses anywhere. If you want to dig up some things from the past, I knew there was a segment on Equinox a year or two ago, in some borderline-sensationalist news show, maybe Hard Copy or something... I remember the guy had a really friendly manner and a big mustache, maybe you could pinpoint the show better than I. (NOT Geraldo. Pretty sure, anyway.) Equinox's web page is www.equinox.com, of course. The founder is a sight to behold... Name's Bill Gouldd, really spelled with two D's because he says it stands for "dollars", I kid you not. One comment: in Amway, there is kind of a decentralization of power, through the motivational organizations (AMO's) which claim or seem to be at odds with each other. In Equinox, there is ONE top dog, and he is considered a deity above all the other minor guys. This is a good angle to consider if you are interested in cults. Thanks for writing.
Subject: Finished your Amway story... Tue, 30 Dec 1997 Just finished reading your story. Sounds quite familiar. Have been in AMWAY for a year and have 60 plus tapes, a couple of kits sitting in the garage that I was convinced to buy for the hordes of new recruits that WE were going to sign up, over night kits, tablets of the plan, books on positive thinking, a couple of thousand miles on my vehicle, a few plane trips, and no extra money. The irony of this situation is that I have some what successful at my own business not only in the dollars earned but I also enjoy what I do. For some reason I let these people convince me that I was not happy and my salvation was AMWAY. Thanks for the Info. Just threw my renewal for AMWAY in the circular file.
Subject: Amway is a good thing. Tue, 30 Dec 1997 "If you do good things, people always question your motives." "If you do great things, people always question your methods." "But don't let that stop you from doing good and great things."
"If you jump up and down and yell at invisible playmates while standing in the park, people always question your sanity."
"But don't let that stop you from playing with your friends."
Subject: Finished your Amway story... Wed, 31 Dec 1997 Interesting Comments. I was prospected by my brother-in-law and was so excited my wife and I stayed up all night listening to the pitch. Here was a guy that I had always liked who wanted me to be part of his organization ! I don't think it was the money that appealed to me as much as the independence...be your own boss...set your own hours...retire in 2 years etc. I learned to draw circles, cold prospect in doughnut shops ( I actually got good at it) and sponsor people. And I never made a dime. I was 7 wide and 2 -3 deep and I never made a dime. I spent most of my free evenings looking for prospects, setting meetings, drawing circles and I never made a dime. I bought books and tapes, bought only "positive products" and rented a motor home to take my downline to a rally 250 miles away. And I never made a dime. I went to a "Family Reunion" in Charlotte, North Carolina, saw Jerry and Sherry Meadows, went to Dexter Yager's house and got to peek in the windows of his mansion. And I never made a dime. I could have lived with all the financial loss but the thing that kept eating at me was the constant mind control, the manipulation that was never very far from the surface, the implication that those who didn't sign up were losers and those who dropped out were quiters. Nothing like a few labels to keep the folks in line. After I dropped out, my upline through the direct also quit and the luster began to come off the upline Diamond. All this happened 10 years or so ago and I'm very glad to be away from it. I wish you success in your effort to get the word out although you probably won't have much impact on people who are blinded by all that "love". The number of Heathers are legion but even if you do just end up preaching to the choir it ain't all bad.
Subject: Finished your Amway story... Wed, 31 Dec 1997 Nice Job with the Amway piece. I just recently escaped an "opportunity" with Rexall Showcase International, selling nutritionals, etc. I started getting an uncomfortable feeling when they talked more about recruiting than selling product. After the put a real hard "close" on me..."act now or it'll be too late" I did some research on MLM. Thank God I did because it appears that they all follow the same scripts. Thanks for your efforts.
Subject: Amway Wed, 31 Dec 1997 Hi Rusell, I actually read most of your AMway story. Very interesting!!! Recently I had contact with Amway people too. You are right, it is a psychological game. I said from the start that I was not interested but now they are trying to get me to give up the names of my friends. The guy just called me yesterday. He had his higher uppers speak to me and they were very good -- very effective -- but I knew that it was not something I wanted to do. Anyway, the guy called me last night to get together and I told him I am very busy and that I will call him when I am free. But after reading what you experienced and your perceptions I definitely will tell him NO! I do not have names and numbers to share with you!!. Great story. Unfortunately a lot of people fall for this scheme. Happy New year!
Subject: your Amway story (part 2) Wed, 31 Dec 1997 This is no Flame Great Job on your research. Let me tell you my story. I'm a programmer in Buffalo NY. I do a lot of side jobs to supplement my income. I code and install hard/software anything from keeping my wife from working while she raises our child. Last Sunday I got a call from a Jeff Martin and he said he was referred by a friend, I asked who the friend was, and he said he didn't know (this raised a red flag) but he would provide the name of the friend if we had a meeting. He said he needed computer work done in the Buffalo area because he was expanding his business. I said great I do side work all the time, lets meet. He suggest the next night, (flag number two; no business person has ever given me such short notice) I thought this must be a big deal or Amway. I told my wife this was probably Amway. The next night I meet at a coffee shop. We meet and a ask again who referred my name. He used a name from a past employee (flag three time I never got along with this person he mentioned) So I tell him my background and he tells me he is a dentist etc ... and then he repeats a name over and over like this person is greater than he. I really got suspicious them. So was direct, What work do you want done, programming, networking, etc.. He said, you could get into computers but you could also become very wealthy. I started to boil at this point. In my life time I have been recruited for Amway many time but this was the lowest yet. I have a real bad temper so I could not hold it any longer. I told this guy off for at least 5 minutes. Swearing and yelling and telling him he should be with his family not trying to screw people out of their homes and away from their families. I told this jerk that I will send him a bill for $55.00 for consulting time that he requested. The next day I called the person that supposedly gave my name to the Amway rep. He denies and assures me that he would never think giving my name as a reference.
Subject: Finished your Amway story... Thu, 01 Jan 1998 Dear Russel, Thanks for what you have shared. I have a son in law who is a well educated teacher (masters in school administration) with many years teaching experience in several schools. He is now hooked on the ww dreambuilders program and has already spend lots of money on training, tapes, seminars etc. He wants to be a Diamond and give up his carrier as a teacher in a few years. He wants to make it and is totally absorbed in Amway. He knows how I think about it and has now choosen to avoid all converstaion about Amway. I am in a way an alien to his family. He is setting up a special office and answering service, computer, photo copier, scanner etc equipment. Toyalling over 1000 dollars. I cannot stop him. By the way my wife and I have worked for about half a year on Amway and got out in time. The total indoctrination into the Amway cult is taking place. I am waiting for the time that he either makes it, or totally crashes. I will have to be ready for either moment and remain in the meantime prepared to accept what comes and help wherever and whenever I can. Thanks again for the info you gave me. Too bad my son needs it but will never read it. Greetings and best wishes for 1998
Subject: Your Amway page... Thu, 1 Jan 1998 Bravo!!!!! I enjoy your site! I had a very similar experience in Amway. I was "in" for a little over 5 years and don't have a dime to show for it. I liked the products, but hated the system. I was in the Britt line and hated the way they kept changing the rules and procedures, "to make it better" they would tell me. How could it be better if I was confused all the time? One of the things they told me was that if I wanted to succeed, I had to find someone(who was in the business) that was where I wanted to be and duplicate his actions. But it seemed that every time I would duplicate this persons actions, they would tell me "we don't do it that way, here is the way we do it" Is this confusing or what? I also felt very misled, when I first saw "the plan" I was led to believe that all I had to do was change my buying habits and the plan called for me to do 100pv per month(and you know the rest of the plan). But, when they got my money and I got in they told me I really should do 300pv per month!!!!! What's this crap!!!!!!!!!!! I really wish I could have back all the money I spent on those stupid Dream Weekends, then I would not need a business, I WOULD BE RICH!!!!!!!!
Subject: FinishedyourAmwaystory... Fri, 2 Jan 1998 I find your story interesting mostly because I felt very alone after my experience with AMWAY I lost everything with AMWAY the stories they never tell in one of there draw the circle meetings is how much it cost people in the end and how much they will loss friends, family, HUSBANDS, AND MONEY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! at least I am glad to see I am not alone out here, that others can see it, and know what it is.
Subject: amway Sat, 03 Jan 1998 i can relate to your story. i have a cousin that had a nice thing going for himself -- two restaruants a nice house and a good marriage. he wasn't RICH but he wasn't hurting either. then he met up with the amway people. every time i spoke with him he was telling me about the last meeting he attended in las vegas or florida and the next one he had reservations for. he tried his best to recruit me but i kept telling him most of the items that you mention in your story --- how can anyone make money if there isn't a lot of product sold??? no matter how many times he explained it he would stop about half way and say --- you just have to come to a meeting their are people there that can explain the business a lot better than me!!! well needless to say about a year of chasing this dream and not tending to business cost him dearly. he lost his two real businesses, then his wife, house ... well you get the picture. keep telling your story .... it needs to be told.
Subject: your amway article Sun, 04 Jan 1998 Mr. Glasser-- It's about six in the morning. Half-an-hour ago, I decided to take a cigarette break and check my e-mail. As usual, there was nothing for me. So, with plenty of tobacco still to go, I started looking over some webpage about skeptics that was left on my browser from earlier in the day. I don't know why I clicked on your Amway link. Only in passing had I ever heard of Amway, and I had no interest in them. However, I was instantly fascinated as I began to read your article-- an informative one yes, but also zesty and entertaining with excellent prose. I laughed out loud at some of your witty comments within the dialogue and was really in suspense during the final scene at the restaurant with Phil. I should add that I started my cigarette break puffing a bit more quickly than usual, because I was anxious to get back to my video-- Alfred Hitchcock's "The Man Who Knew Too Much". But your story won. Rarely-- almost never-- would I bother to read on the Internet a big article. This letter to you was therefore a must. Thank you so much, and good luck to you in your future plans... Sincerely, ***** (a senior studying english and economics at Ohio State U.) Now.. I get back to Al and that beauty, Doris Day.
Subject: Finished your Amway story... Sun, 4 Jan 1998 Hi Russell, That was a wonderful piece. I am an environmental engineer and m,y wife an MBA. My upline is a fortune 500 management consultant. I cannot tell you how pleased I am to read this before I parted with $ 200 odd for the starter kit - which is lying in my house and my upline expects money tomorrow. My wife was skeptical all through but I wanted to give it a try for the Residual income stuff. I sat searched 20 pages of Altavista Netsearch to come up to your page and the decision was made. Thanx very much. I am marking the URL of your page to some of my friends (potential grabs) and my upline(?). Hard work is the only way to go.
Subject: URGENT Sun, 04 Jan 1998 Hi : This is urgent. I knew a friend in New Jersey who gave me these amway materials and 2 tapes. I had visited New Yoerk actually and went to NJ to meet him. He is very nice guy by nature. After I came back to St.Louis, he gave my nos to anothey person whoi called me one day and he happens to be from my country and my state ! as m friend in NJ. Tell, me what I should do now. I dont want to upset my firnd in NJ.
Subject: Your Amway story (part 3) Sun, 04 Jan 1998 LOL! Im not an amway distributor anymore.. I was too lazy and comfortable to do anything to better myself. Your little story was entertaining though... studying to be a creative writer are you? LOL
Subject: My reply to your Amway page Mon, 5 Jan 1998 I just wish I had seen your web page before I signed up a couple of years ago. It would have saved me a lot of time, effort, and money (not to mention friends!!). Maybe someday I'll be able to free my sister. Keep up the page!!!!
Subject: Your Page Mon, 05 Jan 1998 eh Russ... I just read your story, and wanted to write a note. I am not involved with Amway at all, but find MLM businesses quite fascinating. My cousin in Hawaii is involved. I am not sure how deep he is, but he seems to make money for his wife and 2 kids. I am not an expert in this area, and often get approached to join. There is no doubt in my mind, that MLM does work if your downline is quite large. (please tell me if I am wrong tho in thinking this) But , I don't understand (by reading your feedback from others), how people could make $ from having no sponsors... Do you have any links to where I can find some stuff from the TV expose's that outline the trials and tribulations of dealing with MLM companies? The internet is a good source, but I'm looking for more than just independant opinions.. I think W5 had an expose on this issue. CNN too maybe? I dunno.. Anyways.. I hope your putting your coding to good use... Become a consultant and charge $500 a day.. hehe.. thats what I was told to do, but yet to do it... since I'm working in the Canadian Govt. and getting training out the wazoo :) Anyways.. later eh!Take care .
Subject: From one of your fans Mon, 05 Jan 1998 ** High Priority ** Through a nonsensical series of clicks, I ended up reading your Amway tales some months ago. I also found my way to your homepage and decided to respond to your invitation to send you email...for no other reason than that I enjoyed the personality that came through in your writing, and I thought I'd let you know...and I'm at work and it's the Monday after New Year's and I'd rather be writing anonymous email than dealing with the files in front of me... Interestingly enough, I had absolutely no interest in or knowledge of Amway before I stumbled onto your story, but after reading about your experience, I followed the other links and found out a lot more about the company. And then, wouldn't you know it, the very next day I was having my hair cut by my absolute favorite stylist, and he starts telling me about his new Business. I am immediately on the alert, but I think to myself, "No, it couldn't be." Sure enough, though, when I flatly ask him, "Oh, you mean Amway?" he admits that yes, it's Amway, but it's not my father's Amway. And he proceeds to tell me all about how I should come to a meeting, and how he and his wife paid off their mortgage with their first Amway check and how great it is and...you know the pitch. Of course I know that he must be blowing hot air, must be telling me a pack of lies, but the one thing that was different about his story was that he's from South Africa and his Amway endeavors involve being the one to bring "the Business" to South Africa a few months ago. Supposedly, he signed up 5,000 people in his first presentation. He spends the rest of my haircut time urging me to come to a meeting, and I'm sitting there in the chair firmly telling him I'm not interested. It's almost uncomfortable and coercive enough to make me want to find another stylist...but I am vain and like the way he does my hair and can tolerate his sales pitches. For now, anyway. At least because of your page and the others, I was armed with the truth about Amway. Thanks.
Subject: My reply to your Amway page Mon, 05 Jan 1998 Dear Russell, The only reason I'd like to email you is to question your own behavior about your interaction with Phil and Ted and Heather, etc. You claim to have been very upset (made you squirm) when you wrote Part 3 of your story. You were working on being just as deceptive as you said the Amway people were. You lied. You pretended to be interested. You showed interest when your goal was to be sneaky. Your actions were just as underhanded as the others, in my opinion. I have been researching internet sites about Amway for about a year. I am interested in the business. My research is pretty extensive and I have found that the negative sites involve personal anger and frustration much more than the other sites. I've researched the company as well as their sites. And I've met Amway people who are not pushy and deceptive. Many of them. Do you realize that your research only picked up the negative and you automatically assumed complete truth in the "cult" stuff? I am not at all interested in receiving an answer from you or from anyone pro or con. It just bothered me that you were criticizing and judging people for being underhanded when that was your game too.
Subject: Your Amway story (part 2) Tue, 6 Jan 1998 My brother and sister are both Amway distributors and are completely obsessed with it. The damage is more apparent with my brother as his kids very rarely see him and are developing emotional problems. Every time my son and I get around them and play with them, they are starved for affection. The other day he told me the only people that can buy houses with cash are Amway distributors. I said, "listen what you are saying. Do you ever compare what Amway taught you to your own common sense." I admired my brother and sister as intellectuals as my brother spent 3 years in college and 6 years in the Air Force and served in Desert Storm. My sister holds a Master's Degree in Sociology. The common theme among them however is that they were both very unhappy with their jobs. I do not suffer the same fate. My brother and I can't even hold a conversation anymore 'cause all he wants to do is talk about the tapes and book. It's strange how people become so desperate that they will believe anything. My brother tryed to rationalize his lack of time with his kids by saying that he would only spend 2 or 3 hours a day with them anyway. I don't know how to show them that it's very damaging. Any advice?
Subject: Your Amway story (part 3) Tue, 6 Jan 1998 Bravo!!!! I am very glad to see your web page exposing AMWAY for what they really are. I have never been in AMWAY personally, but I have several family members who are heavily involved and I can see the damage AMWAY is doing in their lives, even if they can't. I like to think of myself as somewhat of an expert on cults, being that I was raised in a cult. AMWAY definitely fits the bill. While they may not be the scariest cult around, the damage they inflict upon people is just as profound as what I went through as a child. I think that it is sad to see that so many people in this world are preying on other people's dreams and ambitions. Even sadder is the overwhelming number of people who lay themselves open to be plundered of their identity, intelligence, and their very souls. The absolute worse part of the whole AMWAY mess, is to see the children of the members. They are starved for love and attention, robbed of their parents affection and time. AMWAY encourages it.......always saying that there will be time enough tomorrow......when you have reached your goals. AMWAY is the ultimate theif.......robbing even the innocent. But isn't that what all cults do? Please by all means continue to warn people of the dangers of involving themselves in a cult, and AMWAY in particular.
Subject: Your Amway story Wed, 07 Jan 1998 I'm sure that you will be fascinated to learn that the Hairy Kritters in Atlanta took up Amway a few years back. I guess that they weren't making enough in the flower biz.
Krishna! Krishna! Draawwwwwww circles!
I pledge allegiance to the Reverend Sun Myung Yager...
Subject: Your Amway story (part 3) Wed, 07 Jan 1998 Dear Russell I found your site most enlightening, as your site is both thorough and you appear to be a rather intelligent sort of chap, so I have a question for you. My wife's sister and brother-in-law have fallen for the entire Amway spiel, audio tapes, video tapes, meetings every week, out of town meetings, imposing on family, missed occasions to whole thing. Have you ever met or known someone who has awoken from the amway stupor, and what did it finally take to wake them up?
Subject: Finished your Amway story... Wed, 7 Jan 1998 Hi Russell, Your story is really funny in that it is so truthful and well written. Just the dose of reality I needed, since one of my friends is "building dreams". I really hate to be the one to break the news to him, so I'm going to tell him to read your page. I'm a software engineer who's doing very well, my favorite form of residual income is mutual funds! Anyway, I hope you are coding by now. I'm sure I don't have to tell you that contractors can make a bundle!
Subject: Your Amway story (part 3) Thu, 08 Jan 1998 Mr. Glasser, BRAVO and KUDOS!! I found your story extremely interesting because I, like you, was very close to joining this so-called "business." Unfortunately, I lack the subdued feelings that you were able to express. My experience took place approximately 4 years ago and I still loath, despise, and truly hate that company. I still can not say the "A" word yet. You might say that I am wasting time being upset still with them, but when mentioned that, that company's business is based on deception, lies, and people's dreams, you hit a chord inside of me that I will never forget and how they exploited my dreams and fears. I even made the mistake of going to Knoxville, TN to a huge "cult" gathering. I am from Sioux Falls, SD, check the map. Many states separate South Dakota and Tennessee. To add to that, my wife and I were not in the best shape financially to be spending money on a shitty trip like that. When the day came that I got out, I told my sponsor(s), J.P. Wallace and his wife, Patsy, that if I ever saw either one of them in a public place, I would make it my job to humiliate them like they have never been humiliated before. Also, while looking at "Rocket Scientist," J.P. I informed him that if I ever came across him alone, I would make it my life's work to rip off his head and spit down his neck. Amazingly enough Mr. Glasser, I do not consider myself a violent person! In the meantime since that last encounter, I have re-entered college to finish up my undergrad degree in Economics, Finance, and Marketing. I have also decided that there will be a day when I OWN those types of people!! In conclusion, did you not find it amazing that these people have such a hard time talking about the "Prestigious" corporation they work for/with?
Subject: My reply to your Amway page Thu, 8 Jan 1998 I have been considering going into amway myself. I have infact listened to these brainwashing tapes, they speak less of amway and more of business marketing plans. These plans could be used for any business and are brilliant. I own my own business and may not join amway for lackof time but what they have to say is very educational..... by the way on your behalf your are entitled to have your own opinions and anyone who cant respect them need to understand that this program isnt for everyone and he does have the right to dissagree. i do believe he may not agree with my belief but im sure he respects it as i respect his. .
Subject: Your "amway page" Thu, 8 Jan 1998 >Anyway, I had no desire to join Amway but found myself seriously >intrigued by them. Who ARE these people? How long have they been >around? We're people like the others, just decided us to try this business, and we had some success ;) Greetings from Chile
Subject: amway: the nightmare Thu, 8 Jan 1998 Russell: thank you for your Amway work. Unfortunately, I wasted three years, thousands of dollars, and countless hours in Amway, btwn 93 and 96. What a feeling of FREEDOM when I got out!!! Just this week I discovered your page and others, and WHAT a RELIEF to see that SO MANY others have experienced what I have!!! As you know, 95% of those who send you negative amway defense, will eventually quit, and join us in agreement to "some" degree. Many who quit simply won't admit defeat, or that they wasted their time. they are too weak to be honest with themselves, in my opinion.... Anyway, keep up the good work!!
Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 Hey man, cool Amway piece. Unfortuantely Ive already been snookered into the sure fire way to the American Dream. If you would like, I would be more than happy to copy and distribute some things from your page. I noticed the robots at the meetings and my "upline" preaching about how tapes, meetings, and videos are essential to success. Is there any way that i could get in contact with Paul to tell him that somebody has seen your site, and has probably turned a convert? down with ScAmway!
Subject: Finished your Amway story... Fri, 09 Jan 1998 Read your story with fascination. Two years ago I was accosted by a "helpful" co-worker who wanted to know if I wanted to make a lot of money. I was a full-time student and full-time+ factory worker whose major was pre-med. Since he had been talking about his investments in the stock market I wrongfully assumed that he meant to show me how he invested his money. When he mentioned something about me watching an informational tape at his house, alarms went off. I felt very uncomfortable with his high-pitch tactics and his insistence with talking to me at every available break at work, and even following me to my car on my way out the door for a period of several weeks. I can relate to your story about the need to study vs the need to be civil to someone who was trying to be nice, but my hours were extremely limited and I didn't have time for idle chit chat. I became more and more unnerved, but I couldn't put my finger on it. He tried the "you could use some extra money couldn't you", "don't you want to be rich" (I figured I will be well-off after med school), and the famous--"well you use soap don't you" spiels. (Do you sell Tide? I asked, and received the our products are concentrated and better answer) He couldn't give me any definitive answers. Then an older woman I worked with told me he was trying to sell Amway and that about 50% of our workforce was involved in the scam. I thought that Amway was a pyramid scheme, and so I made myself perfectly clear to the guy that I wasn't going to get involved in Amway. When I mentioned the name Amway and clearly stated my refusal to join, he left me alone. Maybe he went about it all the wrong way (according to Amway's standards) and this led me to feel the discomfort that helped me get to the bottom of his spiel. After reading your page, I can relate to your efforts to educate an unsuspecting public. I wished I had access to this information earlier as it would have affected my decision to terminate our "talks" much sooner. I informed my friends and co-workers about his scam and what a bad idea I thought it was even though I didn't have any of the information you took so long to dig up. If any of my fellow co-workers with internet access are accosted by this fellow, or any of the other uplinks at our plant, I will refer them to your page. Thanks for keeping this page up even in the face of adversity.
Subject: Finished your Amway story... Fri, 09 Jan 1998 Russell, Last night I went to my first Amway meeting with my wife (UK) basically because we need the extra dough, and was recommended by a work colleague of my wifes. I knew i had to check the net to see if there was any adverse sites......your site has really confirmed my suspicions, thanks ever so much for putting it on the net, thanks, thanks and thrice thanks!!
Subject: Your Amway page... Fri, 9 Jan 1998 Dear Uninformed: I am fascinated by someone who spends so much time on something that they found to be so negative. People who concentrate on the negative live in the negative. I bet you are thinking negatively about what I am writing right now. That is up to you and I see how you have chosen to live. I am sorry that you had such a horrible experience with a particular group of distributors. Amway, by the way, has no idea how to build the Amway business. If you are angry about what you heard from people building the business, then you need to direct your anger at the teaching organization. Amway provides little or no tactics on building a profitable Amway business. I am also aware that you say you are qualified to talk about the organization with out ever being involved with the organization. I am not going to go back and pull apart your report, but I have never heard of some of the things you are talking about. I can not say that McDonalds is the epitome of evil just because one location was not doing as they were told by Ray Krock Enterprises (late McDonalds owner). Just like if a group of Amway distributors really did things backwards then I would not decide that all Amway distributors are backwards. I really irritates me that people do it in a manor that is not taught. It gives the company a bad name and is off putting to people like you. I can not help their mistakes. All I can do is to do it right myself, and that is what I am doing. I have lost no money and never will in this business because I do it the way the teaching organization teaches me. My biggest problem with Amway is that they are very traditional. That is not going to keep me from becoming something more than a slave to the dollar. ****The number one problem with your argument is that you are making claims about the wrong people. Amway does not teach how to build the business, I state that again. There are separate non-profit organizations started by people who profited in this business that teach growth skills. I read your argument because I am a nineteen year old active distributor who is concerned about why people do not connect with the private franchising method of marketing. You talked about some strange presentations and experiences in your essay. I have never experienced some of those things and my group would never be so immature as to teach those types of tactics of growth. Please aspire to concentrate more on the positive experiences of your life and leave the stuff you don't want behind. I really hope you actually read the responses to your report and that you will get back to me. We can both learn from each other! Since I have been involved in this business, my productivity and joy for life have increased. This is not because I am in a cult or brainwashed. Public schooling brain washed me more that this does. Lets talk about this! Why did you spend so much time building a site when you don't even like the subject matter you wrote about?! Are you afraid that others might succeed where you won't?! Going Diamond
Subject: Amway Articles Sat, 10 Jan 1998 Dear Russell Glasser: Read everything you wrote about Amway, and was curious about your home page, so I clicked on in. Back in the early 80's my wife and I were "recruited" to join Amway, but we declined. Couple that tried to recruit us were the absolutely perfect couple living next door. No kidding. They seemed to live perfect lives, plus they had a clean house, clean kids, clean lawn, clean cars, clean dog. Perfect. My wife and I declined the recruitment. First, we were appalled by the the initial pitch ("we cannot tell you what the business opportunity is until we meet with you and go over your "dreams"). Secondly, we somehow could not connect the values espoused with soap and other products. Finally, in this messy, imperfect world we live in, we could not cope with such clean perfection. I am curious to know if you have anything good to say about multi-level marketing companies. Are all of them slick and illogical? May I suggest that if you ever weary of computers and computer programing, you might take up the written word for a living. You write very well indeed. Best wishes
Subject: Your Amway story (part 2) Sat, 10 Jan 1998 I was a Distributor Relations Coordinator for Amway Corporate World Headquarters 4 years ago and couldn't stomach the tape and tool business. My heart goes out to all of the innocent people who have been taken in by the "pay and obey and ignore your young children for future millions" lies. I left the company during the Bob Blanchard regime ( He was the Director of Distributor Relations at the time of my departure and could be best described as a combination of Hitler and Bryant Gumbal...Control and ego!). (Although Bryant Gumbal has recently redeemed himself in my opinion for the way he handled the Rev. What's his name, High Priest of Scientology, on this last week's Public Eye show.) I'm certain that the mindlessly-indoctrinated clones in Distributor Relations would have some less than complimentary things to say about me as well. That is as it should be! Some of it is probably true. Some isn't. What matters is that by the grace of God I've been delivered from that job and am now happily raising my two young children at home. God is good!
Subject: Finished your Amway story... Sat, 10 Jan 1998 Got back from an Amway meeting tonight sponsored by my brother-in-law who had some upline there saying the same "line of bull" you talked about in your story. (Believe it or not, I read the whole thing!) Appreciate your time to write the article. I've always felt that Amway was a ripoff. Your story just confirms my feelings. Thanks.
Subject: Finished your Amway story... Sun, 11 Jan 1998 Dear Russell, I found your story both insightful and funny, and have to compliment you on what you were able to "discover" in such a short period of time while never actually becoming an Amway distributor or using their products. You appear to be a person very interested in setting the facts straight, so I'd thought I give you the "benefit" of my experiences and research (if you are interested!!). First off, a quick background on my history as an Amway distributor. I was approached by a poker buddy in September of 1993, & was extremely sceptical of the marketing plan from a financially viable point of view. I researched the Amway corporation, not other distributors, and found that the plan worked (there is an FTC approved form called an SA-44 that gets into the nitty gritty details; however 99% of all prospects never bother to really dig into it and what it means.) I started a distributorship in October, and from November of 1993 until March of 1997 "showed the plan" to a minimum of 15 new prospects every month (fewer than 1% of distributors work at that pace for three consecutive months). I worked very close with my direct distributor, and was able to get advice and assistance from 2 others in my upline (who had achieved diamond and crown status, respectively) on many occasions. I was treated extremely well, and I followed the advice given to the best of my abilities. At its largest, my group consisted of over a hundred people locally and one "leg" in Chile that now probably numbers into the thousands. I am currently inactive, but still receive anywhere from $200 to $600 a month in bonus's based on the volume of products purchased throughout my downline. I will probably renew my distributorship for years to come. What you experienced is both common and foreign in this business. What I mean is that each persons' experience is directly based on those people he has contact with. As much as many people try to prove otherwise, the Amway Corporation has very little, if any, influence or control on how a person operates his distributorship. The aspect of "teaching the ropes" to distributors falls squarely with the line of sponsorship. Therefore, each diamond distributors group tends to have a different culture based upon the leadership of that group, and they tend to attract people who like that culture. Obviously, you didn't fit with the group you were exposed to !! (Neither would have I). One of the biggest fallacies that is spread is that the larger groups only make money off of selling motivational books, tapes & meetings. Anyone with a business background can pencil out the costs of pulling off such a setup and realize that these items are run at about cost, and are used to help increase distributorship. I laughed when you asked Ted why there were so many meetings - when you are new, it seems like there is a stupid meeting every day, but when you are building a group, you need to use these meetings to expose prospective distributors to the business. Its one of those things you have to experience from the inside. Having worked very hard at the business, I was able to discover two main reasons why people don't make alot of money with an Amway business - 1) They don't make a consistent, sustained effort, or if they do make the effort, 2) they don't do the right things (or things right) to create a group. I fell into the second category. Building a group is an art, not a science, and requires the utmost in genuine people skills and love of people (not the phony manipulation you experienced). I started the business fairly anti-social, and being a typical conservative liberatarian, don't have much of a bleeding heart!! Hell, what type of people person would spend the time typing a silly e-mail about Amway!! What usually happens when someone doesn't achieve the success they would like is that they rationalize that the business must be the problem, not them. Unfortunately, that just isn't the truth. In my case, I did not succeed to the heights I envisioned because of me, and when I no longer was willing to do what was required to achieve those results, that was when I chose to become inactive. I guess I am trying to say that the Amway business is the Amway business and people make it good or bad. I have no resentment towards the Amway Corporation nor the people in my upline because I went in with my eyes open and gave it my best shot. On the other hand, I am the furthest thing from a "soap moonie" you could ever find, which enabled me to walk away from it with no hangups. At the risk of sounding pretentious, I know I have a better vision of what the Amway business is based on my experience. Unfortunately, I just stink at applying what I know!! Thanks for taking the time to read this and please feel free to contact me anytime. Subject: Re: Finished your Amway story... Sun, 11 Jan 1998 > Dear Russell, > I found your story both insightful and funny, and have to compliment you > on what you were able to "discover" in such a short period of time while > never actually becoming an Amway distributor or using their products. You > appear to be a person very interested in setting the facts straight, so I'd > thought I give you the "benefit" of my experiences and research (if you are > interested!!). Okay. To begin with, your sarcasm is in no way lost on me, and I recognize and appreciate your implied criticism, essentially indicating that "You can't make a judgment call when you never got yourself deeply immersed in the system." I can hope that the entire paragraph wasn't meant ironically; some people do in fact find my story insightful and funny. > I am currently inactive, but > still receive anywhere from $200 to $600 a month in bonus's based on the > volume of products purchased throughout my downline. I will probably renew > my distributorship for years to come. Both impressive and rare, given the feedback I have received from other readers. This of course will represent an income of $2,400 to $7,200 per year if it continues... not bad pocket change, if not exactly the income that dreams are made of. The common claim is that the income level you draw from the business will continue indefinitely. I would be interested to hear, over the coming months, whether you find this to be the case. > I laughed when you asked Ted why there were > so many meetings - when you are new, it seems like there is a stupid > meeting every day, but when you are building a group, you need to use these > meetings to expose prospective distributors to the business. Its one of > those things you have to experience from the inside. I'm sure you did laugh, and I can ALMOST appreciate the necessity of bringing the new kids to meetings, which means that the meetings have to occur regularly. What I do not appreciate is the continuous pressure to go to meeting after meeting and listen to the same motivational hype, and TAKE NOTES on such things. After three meetings, I was almost able to predict what the speaker was going to say next. I suppose the value of attending one or two such meetings per week for the several years that it purportedly takes to achieve Amway success is lost on me. It is not a "big fallacy" that large groups make a lot of money off the sale of tools, in fact there are several ongoing lawsuits against Amway, initiated by big pins, accusing exactly that. For recent details, you should take a look at http://members.tripod.com/~nomorescams/bigsuit.htm > In my case, I did not succeed to > the heights I envisioned because of me, and when I no longer was willing to > do what was required to achieve those results, that was when I chose to > become inactive. But you see, over a long period of time, and having the perspective and hindsight of thousands of letter writers, I feel very strongly that your case is typical. A great many people go inactive and blame themselves, saying "I would have made it, but I just wasn't persistent enough." It would never occur to you that the flaw may be in the system itself; and yet BY DESIGN only a very small percentage of the people involved can actually make money off of their distributorships. Because it takes some 70 to 100 people downline to make any money, and without an infinite number of total distributors, 70 people will necessarily lose money for every one person that makes money. Zero sum game, remember? And what worries me greatly is the very vast amount of self-defeating guilt that distributors such as yourself experience, when they go inactive and say "I should have gone farther... I was just so lazy!" > I guess I am trying to say that the Amway business is the Amway business > and people make it good or bad. I have no resentment towards the Amway > Corporation nor the people in my upline because I went in with my eyes open > and gave it my best shot. On the other hand, I am the furthest thing from > a "soap moonie" you could ever find, which enabled me to walk away from it > with no hangups. I can agree with that. Not everyone is lucky enough to be capable of walking away when they're ahead... or more often, behind. > At the risk of sounding pretentious, I know I have a > better vision of what the Amway business is based on my experience. > Unfortunately, I just stink at applying what I know!! The guilt just eats away at you, doesn't it? I think you should let it go. > Thanks for taking the time to read this and please feel free to contact me > anytime. Thanks for writing. Subject: Re: Finished your Amway story... Tue, 13 Jan 1998 Russell, First off, sorry I'm not formatting this like you did in your response - I am an Internet newbie & haven't figured out how to do that. Heck, it took me a whole day to realize that your response was sitting in my mailbox!! Anyway, please know that I was not being sarcastic regarding your article. You have skills and intuition beyond your 20 something years and my wife was witness to my laughter as I read the "drama". I think I identify with you because you appear to have Choleric/Melancholy personality traits like I, where we know we are right and must let others know it!! It tends to irritate my wife, but she married me because then I could be the annoying one!! A few, quick thoughts on your response: 1) You are right regarding the income we are receiving lessening over time. It will probably slowly diminish over the next 24 to 30 months (except for the leg in Chile, that was too large and had alot of momentum). 2) There is a huge difference when you are attending meetings vs.using meetings for recruitment. I had the same feeling as you, but they were a little more bearable when I felt I was "doing something" (ie, exposing prospects). To this day, I never figured out what the cookie munchers saw in going for the sake of going. I think they thought they were going to have a revelation (or a violent tic). 3) If I had known you were talking about the Yager organization regarding tool distribution and profiting from that, I would have agreed with you. I heard some nasty things about some of the other organizations. I did do my homework (it took some time but was fruitful) on the organization I was affiliated with (Network 21), and they did not operate as Mr. Yager has been accused of. The whole concept of a "system" within a group is difficult to explain, but trust me when I tell you there are differences, and it mirrors the leaders in those groups. 4) You do have alot of perspective, but remember that most of it is heresay. By that, I don't mean it is wrong, it just is 3rd party. I learned a long time ago that experience can't replace knowledge, and knowledge can't replace experience. My experience over a 3.5 year period showed that most people just don't do the work that is required, and then either feel guilty about it, as you mentioned, or attack the concept. Rare are those who try. 5) Your numbers are correct for making a decent profit (approx 100 people in a directs group), but don't overlook the fact that you are in control of that outcome. Thats why I was willing to work hard, because I knew it was under my control. 6) You are wrong that I have guilt eating me at me; I am probably one of the few inactive people around who don't. What I probably have is heartbreak at my ineffectiveness. I showed a plan to a couple once who decided to join the business, but in another group (ouch!!) and then about 15 months later saw their picture showing that they had built to Ruby Volume (approx $30,000 worth of business in one month). Double ouch!! Not being proficient at something was a foreign feeling to me, and to see others fly by was an ego shot. If I had felt guilt, I never would have started my Audio/Video company back in October. I hope none of this is taken the wrong way - like I said earlier, we are similiar when we feel we have a point to prove. Take care, you do a great job with your page.
Subject: Your Amway page... Sun, 11 Jan 1998 Winners never quit. Quitters never win.
Subject: Finished your Amway story... Sun, 11 Jan 1998 Russel- Thanks, I signed up for amway two or three years ago and lost about $150.00 on the startup kit. Then I stopped Amway. My upline was a teacher in the school I work at. I guess he quit to. Still see him every day but we never mention amway. I will ask him sometime soon how he made his way out of amway. Now at that time I was NOT involved in any meetings. Just this weekend a new guy in my church talked me into going to one of the DreamWold meetings with over 2000 people attending. It was just like you described in your homepage. Needless to say I Got Excited again and also scared about repeating the same misktake twice. After reading your homepage I'm convicned that I will never join amway again and save my money for someone else like my daughter. Keep you homepage up for people who are like me: afraid to see what is true when we want to believe so much that all people are telling us the truth. KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK. YOU ARE WONDERFUL.
Subject: Your Amway page... Mon, 12 Jan 1998 Dear Russell, I just started the Amway corporation, yesterday Jan. 11th 98. They call it "IC" or International Connection. Me and my wife just spent $220 bucks to start, and that was a good bundle of change for a hand full of items. I read your story and your approach was ingenious, I wish I could have read this before I joined. I'm doing a little bit more research before I make any decisions. You are a true american, and a true person. I just want to thank you for your site, it helped alot. Some rude, and ignorant person made a comment about your site, and being a Highly honored Designer in my field for many years, I would like to say the content in ones image is greater than the whole. P.S. How's the C.S. life?
Subject: Your Amway story (part 3) Mon, 12 Jan 1998 Been it, seen it, read the Amagrams. This "business" sucks big-time. Signed up in Sept 1993 through a friend of a friend. Knew others who had tried the same, but alarm bells failed to ring. Spent a fortune on "product" at a time when we couldnt afford it. Paid out for the meetings, the conventions, the tapes, the books. Showed the plan, showed the plan, showed the plan. Hit 3% due to an upline conspiracy on a big order. Meetings.. like some religious convention..Bris & Kerry Bovill (UK) worship them, they have done it, gone emerald/diamond. Got totally caught up, Amway speak, losers & winners, sat there writing down the same crap week after week, quoting the latest tape, buzz-words. We were reasonable people, educated, professional, we could see the advantages, all you needed was X people under you doing Y amount of business, so simple. So why were the fish not biting ?? Listening to tapes in the car......a sad waste of time. Spend your time with "successful people " , ignore "stinking thinking". Realization hit slowly so caught up were we. The money, we were outlaying £100's per month (become a 100% user) on product and tapes and books. The people, sad robotic geeks, slavishly genuflecting before the upline, hanging on their every word and repeating it. The upline, sooooo helpful until it came to sign up a "remote" downline distributor. The final realization that we were being fed shit by individuals who were leeching on us for their own income. As lifelong agnostics the realization that we were almost part of a religion. We got out.....by Amway criteria we were a success having hit 3 % three times. As most distributors make nothing due to being sad pathetic losers. Simple message...Amway....dont even contemplate it.....unless you are a manipulative...weak....thick skinned and scheming bastard who can accept total mind shit and control. ex 3% ex Amway forever
Subject: Finished your Amway story... Mon, 12 Jan 1998 Read parts 2 and 3. This is hilarious! Thanks for a great read; you're a talented writer. By the way, I just finished "False Profits," another anti-MLM book that came out last year. It, too, really nailed the psychology of MLM and how people get roped in.
Subject: Finished your Amway story... Mon, 12 Jan 1998 Dear Russell, Thank you. I'm sure I'm probably your 10 zillionth response, but I wanted to say it anyway. My best friend's in-laws are distributors. She is a school teacher who sells the make-up line and is buying into the whole thing. She says it is a way of just getting some extra cash, but she doesn't buy the tapes or go to the meetings. I'm extremely skeptical, however. It sounded good and I can't work because of an ill child, but I need some extra cash and so I was considering Scamway. I have learned something very valuable over time: when in doubt, don't. My mother taught me that and it holds true more often than not, but don't tell her that. There is a reason we have bad feelings about situations that life puts us in and it's usually due to instinct. It is those that ignore their instincts that end up in the trap. I am glad I found your story. Like you I jumped on the internet because I needed some back up support. I think I'll stick to my penniless dream of becoming a writer of sorts. Best of luck to you.
Subject: Finished your Amway story... Mon, 12 Jan 1998 russell, i was very sad and disheartened to read your story. i am an amway distributor and the accounts of things that had happened to you, i have never encountered. just a bit of info for you. amway has many "lines" of sponcerships. you obviously were involved in one that is misleading and was trying to do their best and to you it felt wrong i am sorry that these thing happened to you. please don't think that EVERYONE in amway is like that. i have seen some life changing events in the line if sponcership i am in, like mothers getting to retire so that they can raise their kids so that their not going to daycare. again i am sorry and that your faith in human kind isn't totally gone. there are some of us
Well, he may be sorry that my faith in humankind isn't totally gone, but I'm sure he's willing to help me work on that.
Subject: just read some of your arguments Tue, 13 Jan 1998 Russ- I have to admit-you sound like a very intellectual person. Your explanation of how a Ponzi letter could be considered NOT a pyramid was well thought out and interesting. And it's clear that you (or SOMEONE) has put alot of time and calculations into SOME of the figures and responses on your page.
"Someone" is me and me alone. Any math on this web page is something I have worked out for myself.
Of course, I'm sure you can figure, I AM an Amway distributor. Some of the things I read on your site (and some others sites) are disturbing. Things that people have quoted from tapes from the Britt organization ( "pick Peg or the business" ) and reading about how people are FORCED? to buy tapes, books and attend all the rallies "OR ELSE" , I find all this very unfortunate as there seems to be several who can relate to those experiences. Yet, I can honestly say that in the 3 years that I have been in the Flying Eagles Organization-NOTHING comes anywhere near any thing like that. I have never been told to buy anything-it was always an OPTION if I wanted. They were there for me if I decided to use them. I was even given SEVERAL tapes over numerous occasions from my Direct. Never have we been MADE to attend ANY rally, open, meeting, etc. But I can say that our upline Diamond paid half of our way to our first function and our Direct did the same for some of my downline later on. I agree that alot of the tapes and seminars are repetitive, but it works. It motivates you. At least, it motivates MOST people. And the functions are really enjoyable. We have lots of entertainment and comedians mixed in with motivational speakers. And it's fun being with thousands of HAPPY and people that look forward to their future instead of ----well, don't get me started on the rest of the world. Some of the things going on in the world can get really scary and depressing. Amway and the Flying Eagles have been a VERY bright light in my life. I admire several of the people I have met in the business and the values they have chosen to live their lives by. My upline Diamonds are Ed and Charolette Courtney and I have the privalege of calling them friends. I actually KNOW these people and how they live their lives and it's not like any of the horror stories that I have read about on your page or some of the other sites. I'm not saying that those stories didn't happen- I just know they haven't happened to any one that I know. Sure, I've met and know several people who don't think I should be in Amway and/or it's not for them. I was one of those people for a while. I didn't want to hear anything about Amway because I thought I knew all there was to know about the subject. But I remained friends with them and they with me. (We don't drop our friends just because they're not in the business-that's a whole different class of person that would do something like that). By remaining friends, I saw how they were enjoying their life and their business. So I asked them to show me. I knew NOTHING that I THOUGHT I did when it came to this business. It was NOTHING like my initial beliefs. I know there are several people who have had bad experiences. But that's what they are--"experiences"--that's what the world and life is made up of. What would we be without good and bad experiences? But just because some people have had bad ones doesn't mean the company nor the system should be blasted for it. Nothing is perfect and neither is any person for that matter. There is always room for improvement in everything that we do. And also in the way that we live. Every company, whether it be large or small, has thier wrongs. But in all the criticism, alot of you forget the RIGHTS. Amway, the corporation, and the PEOPLE of Amway, have ALOT of rights. Alot of good going on inside of them. There HAS to be or there wouldn't be over 2 million distributors, not to mention all the employees, that are associated with Amway. And, I know, we are NOT associates with all the other companies that do business with Amway-we were never told to say we were( we're DISTRIBUTORS) but remember ---'THEY' CAME TO AMWAY. 'THEY' ASKED AMWAY TO DISTRIBUTE 'THEIR' PRODUCTS. I guess, all in all, I don't understand why "ex-distributors" and even people that HAVEN'T EVEN BEEN INVOLVED WITH AMWAY find it neccessary to dedicate so much time and money (in some cases) and energy to put the business down and go on and on and on and on about it. PEOPLE DON'T AGREE ABOUT EVERYTHING---some do , some don't. Just get over it! So naturally, not everyone is going to feel the same about this opportunity. I know that alot of you think that what you're doing is for the "good of mankind" , to "warn" them of the "dangers" . But, you know what, you can't become a distributor unless you're 18 years old --and in this country-18 years of age is considered an adult. They are old enough to make decisions for themselves. Let them try it and decide for themselves if the business is for them or not.. I've heard only a FEW on the internet saying it's not--- but there are a couple of MILLION that have decided it IS for them!!!!!. You know the old saying "ONLY THE STRONG SURVIVE" -how true it is. And I'm gonna give it my best shot to be one of the strong.
Oh yes, that famous old saying, I remember it well. Passed down faithfully from grandfather to grandson, for generations, throughout the de Sade family.
I've never felt strongly enough about any article to actually respond, so in my writing this letter to you-well, that says alot. Amway is a great company, a great business, a great opportunity, and has a ton of great people associated with it. I just hope that articles like yours don't keep others from experiencing all the different things that this business has to offer. Let them try it-who knows, they may like it! (and probably will!)
Hmmm, did I forbid anyone from trying it?
Subject: My reply to your Amway page Tue, 13 Jan 1998 Russ, you speak for me and many others!!! My story is not Amway related, but of another organization called Equinox International, headed by a personality named Bill Gouldd. I answered an ad in the marketing section of LA Times in May 1997. This woman Chris answered and asked what I do and such. I was about to graduate from a college located in Malibu, and I told her that I was looking for a job. She said her company was Beverly Hills Marketing Group. As she acted pretty nice for my lack of experience and stories to tell, I was very happy that I arranged an interview with a Inc 500 firm. I showed up promptly that day. I noticed there were many people talking in a mid-size room, similar to a mixer. I found Chris (a Director) out of the crowd and I gave her my resume. She showed much interest in my lagging resume and I was quite confused while happy at the same time. Then Angela came along. She is an International Marketing Director (so called IMD, AKA I M DONE). She said she heard alot about me from Chris. Out of confusion, I said, "Reeealllly???" She said that I came across really well on the phone and all. I was feeling uncomfortable although they were trying to make me feel comfortable. The "Briefing" soon started, and I was told to be seated at the front with a newbie recruit. I knew it was not good for my health at that point. A man named John spoke, went thru the light bulb, yellow water, breath spray, and finally a "Testimonial" tape featuring Gouldd and other successful people at Equinox International. At the time it was over, I was quiet relieved and compared it to an Amway thing that I invited to by my high school buddy. I knew it was not for me. Angela came over and asked me for a second interview. I made an appointment with her knowing that I wont show up. Afterwards I went to my 3:00 class at school. On the day of the appointment, I nicely called her up and tell her that I was more interested to work for a company with a salaried compensation and not interested in "sales". She told me that there are other opportunities available. I assumed that she meant maybe an accounting job or advertising or whatever. I showed up for the second interview one-on-one with her. She told me about how people in the industry makes an above average income, and how she made 50K the first year, 120K the second year, and 150K the third year (She was at the beginning of her fourth year). And she said, "I am going to make you make 3000 dollars on your first month." Man, that hit me. I WAS SOLD by this living example in front of me. She sounded so sure that I will make that much as a newbie. I had no plans of inviting my friends so I imagine that Angela will help me out by sticking one of her new downline into mine. I was naive and I was IN. To put the story short, I signed up shortly after. Bought 5000 dollars of inventory to become a Manager, in anticipating that I will make money if Angela hook me up with people/I bring in people (I was hyped enough to think that I would bring in some of my close friends after all). I sat with her and two other newbies at the same table to "learn how the pros do business"--which is nothing more than saying a script over the phone to make people show up. Went to a 300 dollar seminar called, "Basic Building Blocks to Success" for two days and learn "the most advanced marketing tools not taught in the top business schools" from Kale Flagg, an ex-investment banker from Yale he said (BTW, from research, bankers makes typically 40000 first year as an analyst, 60000 second year, head off to top MBA schools after the second year, and make 6 figures when rejoined as an associate, half a million as vice president. Junior partners make million plus. Senior partners make many millions. Alan Greensberg, CEO of Bear Stearns made 50 Million as bonus in 1997. If I was hired as an Analyst, there is no way I will join a MLM in a million years ). An Australian man was also a speaker that day. I danced, laughed, and even teared during a broadcast when I felt so proud being in this company. (Similar to the Japanese people in WWII after knowing that they are serving the "Son of the Heaven") A company driven by Bill Gouldd's vision and give a vehicle for the normal people to succeed. Not to mention Bill Gouldd showed up to our office one night, welcomed by red carpet literally after he landed in his private jet and limo. I brought few of my best friend to this big event to impress them. They werent and I did not push them, know that if I did it would ruin our friendship. I was half baptized by the idea, and ignored what my parents and true friends told me. However, I still had a sense of individuality and reality left, unlike some others who talked about Equinox left and right. Equinox sold dreams to people for 5000 dollars apiece, and only a few turned the dream into reality. I did not make any money spending my time in the office listening the phone calls and meetings. So one day I did not show up and nobody even bothered to call me and see what happened to me. Unlike an employer in a regular corporation, I PAID MY BOSS. Unlogical as it sound, its ridiculous. Nobody sold anything, and I am stuck with a bunch of pills and water filters. (I had a full-out house cleaning today, and the products still fill up two shelves...it used to fill up three) I dont know who makes money other than Angela and the other few Executive Directors as few people talked about EXACTLY how much they were making. They were saying that Equinox was the only way an average person can achieve success. EVER HEARD OF WALL STREET? Stocks not only made Silicon Valley giants rich, it made many other investor rich too (I know of an army officer who started with 18000 in Dec 1995 turned the investment into 950000 in Dec 1997, that is about 50somefold in two years thru great risk taking and lots of research into tiny turnaround companies). MLMs limits your vision and span of thinking and makes you think like a cult member. I met more stupid people with limited ideas in Equinox than everywhere else. A speaker used Bill Gates as an example in a "Briefing". He said that selling products make sense. He said that Bill Gates got rich because he receive a percentage of the profit when a piece of software is sold. WRONG!!! Bill Gates' salary and bonus is much lower than other Silicon giants and Microsoft never declared a dividend (earnings) to shareholders since its IPO in 1985. Gates' wealth came from his large ownership of Microsoft stocks, which appreciated many times in value because of Microsoft's rapid expansion in revenue and earnings. The speakers used only Mr. Gates because they probably dont know there are many other rich billionaires other than Gates and the possibility of Bill Gouldd in the clan. Ever heard of Larry Ellison of Oracle, Warren Buffett of Berkshire Hathaway, George Soros of Quantum Fund, Andrew Carnergie of US Steel, JD Rockefella of Standard Oil, Donald Trump of Trump Enterprise, JP Morgan of JP Morgan, Phillip Knight of Nike, Edward Johnson of Fidelity Investment, Michael Bloomberg of Bloomberg L.P., Goore Moore of Intel, Michael Dell of Dell Computer, just a few of the American Greats. All the rich people that I can name own ASSETS and thats what made them rich, not by making friends to join their downline. They arent lucky and born with a silver spoon. Warren Buffett, second richest man in the world, started buying stocks since an early age using money he made by delivering newspapers and fixing up pinball machines, and using the law of compounding to achieve his great wealth.. My upline Angela had NO BUSINESS sense, and no knowledge of anything for the matter (she's quite an airhead). The main topic of conversations in the office are Equinox, products, warm market, and $UCCE$$ of course. Nobody talked about the Dodgers game, the stock market (like anyone had money to invest anyways after all the "business expenses"), other business greats other than Bill Gouldd, movies, gossips, and even what each other did in the weekends. MLMers may say that I will never taste the feeling of being rich because I dont have what it takes. Or if I follow what others do I will become them. They might say my mentor at home is a bad influence on success. They might be true that I dont have what it takes because life is not favorable to everybody. But they are dead wrong about the rest. My father is a very well known electronics manufacturer in Hong Kong, and he turned a 24-people assembly line to a 7000-people strong company in 15 years. And he never show off his wealth in luxary items such as gold watches, diamond rings, limos, private jets, Ferraris, and worst of all, talking about his wealth. Another example is Andrew Grove of Intel, who was named "Man of the Year." He wears worn crappy shoes, cheap-looking watches and only his wedding ring. And Sam Walton who drives a beatup pickup truck to work. And George Soros who does not enjoy the luxary of cool cars and such. Bill Gouldd and the like will never be named "Man of the Year" because they dont create ANYTHING. However, they look like they rule the world (at least the MLMers believed that they do). There are no limitations on what paths people take to their goal, but MLMers restricted people to only MLM. After this experience, I am glad that most of my friendships are still intacted, that I have fended off many other MLMers who gave me their speech(I give them only ONE chance to prove that their MLM works, and none differed from Equinox International), that I did not spend the money to go to more seminars and the annual "Kickoff," that my parents didnt mention it in family reunions (I at least hope not), that I dont have to buy any more chocolate bars and shampoo for another two years, and that I dont tell people about my business after I say, "Hello, what is your name?" For those of your who thought that I was BSing (obviously you people are advocates of MLMs), that was just my humble opinion. Maybe you should step back and take a closer look at your friends, your conversation topics, your business spendings VS. income, your definition of success, and most of all, YOU. Best regards PS. I am currently furthering my study at a well-known UC school in LA on the topic of Systems Analysis (networking, but computer networking, not network marketing). I also have an interest in finance (not like you couldnt tell) with experiences in financial analysis of companies. If any of you would like to know my credential or give advice to a young man like myself, email me
I didn't write back to you personally, but I do want to say THANK YOU very much for your detailed and insightful story. I have wondered quite a bit about Equinox and Gouldd. I'm sure many readers will appreciate this.
Best of luck to you... I'm pretty young myself, and into software rather than systems anything, so I can't tell much, but I hope you do well.
Subject: Do you have a brain Russell? Tue, 13 Jan 1998
No, but I'm going to see the wizard soon and I'm sure he'll give me one. Would you like me to pick up a heart for you while I'm out?