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Mon, 9 Feb 1998 Hi Russell, I just read some of part 1 & 2 of your Amway story, and I really think it's funny (not your suffering or pain, but your descriptions...). I'm in Amway, but I'm not too close to the rhetoric or activities they continue to laud as requirements... I do my own thing and I've told them (upline) to leave me alone and only then we can be friends... Please don't think it's me laughing at your hurt (or frustration) but it's that some of what you write I either see or understand how you (and I'm sure many others) might see their activities. My laughter came up the most when you wrote about the "cult" descriptions. That was the funniest belly aching laugh I ever read about Amway. Thanks, it was entertaining. I'm not interested in "recruiting" you back into Amway, I think that can never happen... but two items come to mind. The first one is that Amway Canada (my country of residence) made an extra effort in sending out paperwork on their behalf at their year end, explaining that Amway does NOT require anyone to purchase any tapes, books or tickets to rallies, etc... to be an Amway distributor. I think many distributors think you MUST do these things and buy these tapes, or else you're not an "Amway-ite". I also had misgivings about all the tapes and meetings really not giving me much of what I wanted. After a while I also chopped off activities that I thought I didn`t need or didn't care for. So I basically order my products that I want and get'em delivered at home, etc... and I can get cool deals sometimes (not always...), which is when I buy. That's just me. The other tidbit of info that's worth looking into, is in Part 1 you referred to how it was to put it bluntly, a fraudulent practice and business. I can understand your perceptions, but the reality of it is, if it was fraudulent, the corporation itself would be barred a long time ago from doing business. There's legal beagles just waiting in the wings for something to happen to take Amway down; actually they've been trying to mar and stop them for just over 35 years. These are only ideas to let you know that next time you see some other "event/opportunity/group" you might want to simply "slice the baloney" off and and keep the steak for yourself. The sad part in what you describe (and I admit I didn't read it all...) is the practices of individuals reflect on Amway directly, and in reality there's nothing Amway can do to stop or modify or influence distributor practices. The only exception I've known of is when an illegal tactic has been used, only then can Amway legal dept. use the justice system (as it is...) to prevent distributors from behaving a certain way. I've even "heard" that they've terminated distributorships and no longer allowed to be involved in their business. I've seen and been around people of shall we say little repute, it's sad to see because they can't tell they're either phony or out of integrity, and they still put on a smile and carry on, it's scary. But I figure as long as they keep trying, sooner or later they'll bump into people like me who'll tell them what they look like to me, phonies, no integrity, simpletons, etc... I've only had to express my opinions once and they run, those are the blind ones. Then there's a few who still hang around and call, but they don't use giberrish (sp?) around me anymore. They talk more like humans and themselves and these are the "precious few" that I think are worth keeping. Don't get me wrong, I don't condone everything others are doing, but if anything crosses my path, they get an earful and they either run or they hang around and become themselves with me. (at least with me they are...). Anyway, enough "rhetoric" from me. Just wanted to let you know about what my perceptions were after being in it for about 5 months. Better luck in your future ventures!, and have fun. P.S. in any MLM you'll always get a "human" factor that is less desirable and others that are quite desirable; having the courage to call a spade a spade in the face of opposition is what makes you feel like a pillar instead of feeling like a pawn.
Subject: Your Amway page... Mon, 09 Feb 1998 Hi Russ! The update was worth waiting for...now, what's the story with your new girlfriend's experience (by the way, congratulations on this new relationship!)
Subject: amway Mon, 09 Feb 1998 just read your amway story with great interest. I had many of the same questions as you did. If everyone is getting rich, where is the money coming from? Who is paying retail? to me, I could find better prices if I shopped around. I also found it interesting that it took several meetings before it was "revealed" to me that the company was amway. I would probably have been even more objective if they had told me this right up front. I never made it to any of the meetings like yourself where the diamonds and emeralds spoke. Probably because I am such a loser (I work late afternoons as a heavy equip./diesel mechanic) was how I got out of these meetings. Anyway, the stock market and mutual funds have treated me very well the last few years. I probably won't be rich, but I will be comfortable and will keep my current friends. I just don't believe that in this world that you can get something for nothing.
Subject: your homepage Mon, 09 Feb 1998 russel, you may get thousands of e-mails, but if you can respond to this one please do. i read your homepage and i truly feel for you. there are some obnoxious ambots out there that have no respect. i am a 2500 distributor, making okay money, enjoying myself in the business, and i love the functions etc. i do agree however with the fact that the profits from the system should be disclosed to all distributors. i will start my fight when i acheive direct. i can learn from your story on how to remain ethical and build this business. i am of the opinion that NO person should EVER be labelled "idiot", "loser", "moron", or "broke" for saying no to this business. you would not believe it but my emerald direct who used to partake in this activity of insulting the pe ople who say no is now teaching us that such behavior is selfish! i was so shocked to hear this at my latest "leadership" meeting in ohio. right now, the way i build the business is to sell the products and leave an open invitation to those who want to do more. it is working well. plus, it lets THEM decide on what they would like to commit to. and when a person/couple commits and then goes sour, i encourage them to remain customers and friends. my goal is to become successful enough that when I voice my concerns/opinions on the wrongful aspects of the business that it will cause a tidal wave. PLEASE write me back at my home address, which is ***** Sincerely and without flames, ***** the "friendly" distributor (ha ha)
Subject: amway Tue, 10 Feb 1998 I can't believe it! Everything you have said is exactly what I wanted to say to Amway myself. I was a distributor who finally choose not to renew this year. I've listened to the John Sestina tapes and the hype and my question is this; If Amway is so good, why are there more ex-distributors than current active distributors? Why do you have to talk to 100 people to sponsor one? And then what? You get to tell that person he has to talk to 100 people to sponsor one! This is my experience. I could go on for hours about this but I just wanted to let you know that what you have to say about the company is true. I was a distributor since 1980 and my total income has been less than $100. Not because I didn't try, but because there is too much B.S. and hype and not any truth. If it's so good why did Brian Hays (a Crown Embassador I believe) answer the question "How do you sponsor someone when they know it's Amway?" with "I don't know." If it's so good, why do they tell you to hide the name? I'll close it here. Keep up the good work!
Subject: Scamway
Tue, 10 Feb 1998
Hi Russell!
Enjoyed the very engaging narrative of your close encounter of the
Scamway kind. I had a tremendous struggle with my wife a couple
of years back as some putative friends tried to pull her in as well.
Fortunately we're too close to bankruptcy for there to be much
spare cash to throw after bad, and my wife has gradually lost
interest anyway. But I cannot resist telling you about what
happened some 15 years ago.
At that time I was living in a very rough neighborhood on Staten
Island, and actually considered it a blessing to have as my
housemate a collector for local Irish loan sharks. You know the
type: basic irresponsible-but-charming sociopath, violent and
sentimental by turns, always looking to get over on people. But no
one bothered me as long as I had him under my roof. One day he
dragged me with him to a Scamway recruitment presentation in
some midtown Manhattan hotel. They were touting an over-priced
'burglar alarm system' that day. It appeared to be a box with
wires coming out of it, and sold for nine hundred bucks ($900).
The main speaker was an unprepossessing lug of a man who was
introduced to the assembled guests as "a young man who is about
to become a millionaire." To make a long story short, my companion
was hooked, gave the lug, who "sponsored" him, the $900 (which
he borrowed from me, of course), and after a few days expended
in a futile effort to muster enough courage to peddle Scamway's
junk (and we're talking about a professional thug!) decided he
wanted out. When he applied for a refund, he was told that his
sponsor had absconded with the $900 and fled to Mexico. Vigorous
appeals to higher-ups in the Scamway network -- the very people
who had vouched for the 'sponsor' at the presentation -- were met
only with categorical disavowals of responsibility. Then Pete, my
thug of a housemate, decided on a more drastic measure. We
obtained the Westchester address of Pete's 'sponsor's' sponsor
from a phone directory, and showed up unexpectedly on her
doorstep. Pete had had some experience with this sort of thing,
needless to say, and the woman was panic-stricken, to say the least.
I am normally much too shy and self-effacing even to contemplate
what we did on that day, but the spectacle itself was strangely
irresistible. We more or less pushed our way into this woman's
house. As she was going to another room to use the phone, she
took a big spill in the hallway. I felt bad for her, but Pete just
smiled -- he was evidently used to seeing just this sort of reaction
in people. We could hear her speaking to someone at Scamway
headquarters in Michigan ("...they're HERE! In my house! What
the hell am I going to do? I don't have any cash here!...). Eventually
she put me on the horn with her interlocutor, but he only objected to
my tone and refused to speak to me further. This comedy went on
for some time, but we evidently got our message through. A check
from Scamway turned up in our mailbox a few days later. It covered
about 80% of what we were trying to recover, but I considered
myself fortunate to get anything back at all.
The moral of the story: If you're going to be a Scamway distributor,
for godsake have an unpublished phone number.
Live long and prosper!
Subject: Re: Scamway
Tue, 10 Feb 1998
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!
Thanks! That was one of the funniest Amway stories I've heard in a
long time.
Subject: Amway and MLMs
Tue, 10 Feb 1998
Hi! My name's ***** and I am doing research on MLMs. I was on the
internet and saw your page on the Amway story. I am not, in any way,
affiliated w/ Amway or any MLMs. Actually, I am writing to you because I
have a research paper due in about two weeks and I decided to do it on
Amway, why people go into it, how it works, if it works, etc. One of the
requirements is to search the internet as well as to get first hand
information through interviews.
I am currently doing my research right now and was wondering if I could
ask you some questions some time in the future. At present, my prof has
told me that for a 1500 word essay, my premise is too unfocused and needs
narrowing. Having no/little background on the subject, I thought I would
poke around some books in the library and ask around for comments, etc.
hence my e-mailing you.
I would appreciate any help you could give me. If, however, this is an
inconvenient time for you, could you e-mail me back at the above address?
Thanks in advance for your time,
Subject: Re: Amway and MLMs
Wed, 11 Feb 1998
Hi,
I'd be happy to answer a few questions by email. I'd also give my
phone number if it would help, but you'll find that when I'm at home I'm
usually online. Also I'll be busy most of this week and through the
weekend, but I always answer select emails when I've promised to do so.
Let me ask you a few questions first: what is the tone of your paper?
What originally interested you in this topic? Who else are you planning
to talk to besides me? (Distributors, etc)
Subject: Re: Amway and MLMs
Thu, 12 Feb 1998
Hi Russell,
Thanks for emailing me back so promptly! My paper is due on Feb 23(Mon)
so this probably means that I'll be writing it on Sat/Sun. It is for my
English composition class. My teacher asked us to choose between two
topics: communication or work. I chose the latter because my sister had
been recently approached by someone in the MLM business. She has gone to
a couple of meetings and has also taken home an "information box" that has
stuff that, to me, looks like Amway products. She has promised her
'friend' that she would seriously look into this business. This
business operates under a different name (not called Amway) and no matter
how much I tell her that what she's going into is still Amway-like, she
says she would like to keep an 'open mind'. I am hoping I can convince
her with this paper that this is something she shouldn't go into. This is
really the reason that I'm writing the paper.
As I mentioned earlier, it is a 1500-word paper. But the requirements
include (sorry, I don't have my binder handy & therefore don't have all
the particulars for my paper):
- research from:
several books - some of which should be published in Canada
periodicals - some of which must be Canadian publications
interviews - must be first-hand info
internet research
observation - first-hand, of course
My teacher says that if someone's particular topic doesn't meet all the
research requirements (ie. can't find Can. publications), we must tell her
sometime before we hand in our papers. Anyway, I have the books covered
(hopefully!) as well as the periodicals. However, I was planning to go
through the internet to look for other sources and I was hoping to
interview, through email, people like yourself who have considerately left
addresses and who I've got some background on. I was also planning to
interview some of the profs in Commerce in my school. As for the
observation part, I suppose I do have to go to at least one meeting and
see what happens there, and this will also afford me the opportunity of
interviewing the 'other side' of whom I know nothing of at the moment.
I don't yet know what tone I will use. If I were to write it today --
mind you, I haven't done most of my research yet -- I would probably write
w/ a slightly derisive and skeptical tone. However, it could change to
one of impartiality for the sake of sounding fair and openminded.
I thank you for offering your phone number but I think it would be long
distance to call you. Email will do just fine!
Well, I've written a really long email and I hope you didn't get bored! I
hope to have questions for you soon!
from,
*****
University of British Columbia, Canada
Subject: Re: Amway and MLMs
Fri, 13 Feb 1998
The first reference you ought to check out is Sidney Schwartz's web
site, which can be found as a mirror on my site. There are several
things to be gotten out of this: Sidney has an interesting story himself
because he got censored by Amway; his research is pretty hefty, and
there is a good long bibliography on the subject.
As far as printed material goes, there are two good books I've found:
Steven Butterfield's "Amway, the Cult of Free Enterprise" and Philip
Kerns' "Fake It Till You Make It." I found the first book in my school
library. The Kerns book is out of print, but Sidney Schwartz (whose
email address I could give you) is willing to make copies if you send
him shipping costs.
Subject: Re: Amway and MLMs
Fri, 13 Feb 1998
Thanks for the references! I'll look for Sidney Schwartz's site on
Monday. I was wondering if you knew of any other well-known MLMs aside
from Amway? If possible, I'd like to mention other MLMs so that my paper
doesn't look like it's targetting Amway specifically -- although if that's
all there is, I guess that's what's going to happen!
Have a great weekend!
(One month later...)
Subject: Re: Amway and MLMs Tue, 10 Mar 1998 Hi Russell! I just wanted to thank you for all your help! I submitted my paper a couple of weeks ago and am still waiting for the graded paper. I got the strangest look from the librarian when I returned all the pro-Amway/MLM books that I borrowed (it's too bad there weren't any anti-MLM books). She probably thought that I was considering going into it and was researching about it! While I was writing my paper, my sister decided not to get involved with the Amway-type business -- something called 'World-Wide Dreambuilders' -- that her friend was involved in. However, she still had a couple of other friends (that were also approached by her Amway friend) who were thinking of joining and 'making lots of money'. Two of them were conveniently at my house when I finished my paper, so I decided to let them 'proofread' it. I think the contents gave them something to think about. Thank you again!
Subject: You and Ginny Tue, 10 Feb 1998 Congratulations - I love it when 2 bright and attractive people meet the way you have! Way to go Ginny!
Subject: Your Amway story (part 3)
Tue, 10 Feb 1998
ABSOLUTELY!!
Go get 'em.
Subject: AMWAY page
Tue, 10 Feb 1998
Interesting page, Russell. Most of what you say has enough basis(I
think you said three weeks)in truth, from your perspective, yet you
simply miss the point.
It never ceases to amaze me how many people seek celebrity status via
webpages and slamming of large groups of other people. To make the
generalizations and class judgements you infer from your relationship
with a small number of Amway distributors leads one to question your own
"real" agenda. Are you attempting to protect others or merely justifying
your own decision not to pursue the opportunity?
You are right about what you say- Multi-Level-Marketing is a rough
game. It involves real money and real people. You cannot just code your
way out of trouble, or spend your entire adult life in the fantasy world
of computer games.
Have you ever realistically considered the amount of competition you
will potentially face in the computer game development market? And your
future is rapidly dwindling, as the average hacker-entrepreneur makes
his millions by 35 and gets out. Talk to some microsoft employees about
programmers and their long term career growth opportunities. You base
much of your dream on the belief that the growth in use of computers
will continue ad infinitum. You don't even understand the applicability
of The Universal Truth you so brazenly accuse others of not
accomodating!
Get a grip! I have worked in engineering and development(I started
before "software" became a commodity)for the last 22 years, and the one
thing Amway talks about that is true, is that you have no future working
for someone else!
I do not agree with all of the doctrines of Amway, and I am not a robot
and I do run a distributorship (1 year). And you are absolutely right, I
haven't made a million bucks! And I am not trying to! But it sure beats
working at Macdonalds! And it really says something about your character
that you have chosen to villify ANY group of people for whatever reason!
Do you honestly think your present employer "cares" about you! You are a
number and as soon as you can be replaced by someone of equal
credentials for a cheaper price, you will be! I know, as I have been
there! Grow up!
Why do you think so many of the people you met were in their 50's?
Maybe because they have been where you are-have you been where they are
yet? Do you have a family to support? How many people in your family or
relatives do you owe the price of your education to? Are you a veteran?
What exactly qualifies you as an expert on anything other than
children's games! Grow up and smell the coffee.
Multi-levels and even Amway may not be for you, but maybe neither is
racquetball or lacrosse. Does this make these games evil and
materialistic if people strive to play them for monetary gain?
The important thing in all this is: start your own business-no matter
what it is-and simply because you are not mature enough to understand
that business is SALES, does not make all "salesmen" evil!
You watch a lot of television, don't you? Great beer commercials huh?
Gee, I wonder if you villify Annhueser Busch for there blatant disregard
for human life in their commercials promoting alcohol usage-contributing
significantly to the demise of thousands of people each year due to
alcoholism! But that's okay 'cuz you saw it on TV, right? And TV is okay
isn't it? It doesn't bludgeon you with the same commercial sales pitches
again and again until you don't even know why you want to chew Wrigleys
gum, or buy the latest SONY playstation game! Or why your life is a
futile joke made more painful by any contact at all with anyone who
might have a different view of the universe than you do. A hopeful
vision of what the future could be, based upon centuries old laws of
success. Such as, you should never take financial advice from a broke
person-he can only tell you waht he did to fail financially.
I know, it is like trying to teach a pig to whistle-waste of time and
you are probably annoyed.
Get back to me in 40 years, I'll be interested to see if you have
opened your eyes by then! By the way, great photo!
Subject: Your Amway story (part 1) Tue, 10 Feb 1998 The only problem I have with your EXCELLENT description of the come on and ensuing deification of the upline, is with your basic premise that there is a limited amount of wealth to go around...There is an unlimited amount of wealth and these folks (my wife and I are peripherally involved), that is, Amway distributors, are just looking for a bigger piece of the pie and participating in capitalism via this route... Good luck with the job search, programmers are in big demand...If you know anything about professional web site development, rather than a negativity-tirade page, contact me.
Subject: Re: Your Amway Article Tue, 10 Feb 1998 Hi Russel: I read your Amway experience from start to finish. You have a great writing skills and everything you wrote about Amway was absolutly true. I rescued two of my friends from Amway 10 years ago in Ohio (I just happen to be in the apartment of my friend when the Amway person showed up to do the sales pitch). I was badly tricked into attending an Amway super-meeting two years ago and I was very close to beat the crap out of the guy who took me there (I thought I was going to have a meeting regarding some contract device driver project with the "owner of a succesful business" !!) I just wanted to tell you that I enjoyed your article tremendously. I will keep your URL handy and will ask my friends to read it too. How did I get to your URL ? I just saw an article about Amway in this week's Business Week magazine (www.businessweek.com). I just triwd to see what I can find about Amway in Internet. The very first page of my search result had your URL in it. Thanks and good luck in all your life's adventures.
Subject: Your Amway story (part 2) Tue, 10 Feb 1998 You obviously really have a personal problem, I think you should get a real life and not waste time with this stupid web site.
Subject: Your Amway story (part 3)
Wed, 11 Feb 1998
I have just been introduced to Amway myself. I have been to a
fuction, I have heard the sales pitch and I have heard two of the
tapes. So far I agree with everything you have stated (except perhaps
the cult idea-although it mingt be the truth). I noticed a blank, but
at the same time serious look I recieved after stating my own idea. My
idea was beyond his(an upline that was direct) and Amway's. Interactive
Distribution. It sounds so great that why should I limit myself to just
Amway? I could get involved with other catalog companies. After all it
is supposed to be my business. The "Direct" guy didn't like that. Now
that I have read your web page, I don't think I like him.
Subject: Amway Wed, 11 Feb 1998 As a past Amway Distributor, I can almost whole heartedly agree with you. Several years ago. I decided I would like to try selling Amway products. I went so far as to look in the white pages and found a name fairly near my office. I went and met Mrs. B. She introduced me to the concept of selling Amway. Mr. and Mrs. B. were extremely kind and helpful in guiding me through all the necessary steps to begin my own business. We held meetings once a week. There we had informative training sessions. These sessions were used to build our selling ability. Not just for Amway, but for the products. Mr. & Mrs. B along with their upline Mr. & Mrs. J. were always there to help. I was welcome to their home anytime I had questions. I learned quite a bit about the products, enough so that I had a decent clientele. After about three years, Mr. & Mrs. B decided to stop selling. Mr. & Mrs. J continued from their home about 60 miles away. This was just too far for me to attend meetings. So, after a few months of no meetings, I felt it was time to quit. A few years later, I started thinking about selling again. So, I called Mrs. B and asked if she could recommend someone near my home. She gave me a name but I put it on the back burner and forgot about it. I was visiting my neighbor one day when she informed me that she too had started doing Amway. So, I took advantage of this and decided to give it another try. To my dismay, our upline were the typical money grubbing @(#*$&$^% that you mention in your articles. They preached about recruitment, instead of selling the product. Every meeting we had was about recruitment. Whenever I would ask for a training session, they would say, we will do that next month. Well, next month never came. It got to the point I stopped going to the meetings. I ordered some products for my personal use and for one of my better customers. Months and months went by and I never heard from my upline that the products had come in. I went by their house several Wednesday nights (the normal nights for our meetings) but no one was ever home. I left messages on their answering machine, I left notes on their door. I did everything but camp out in front of their door. They never called me. Many months later, we ran into each other in a restaurant and they had the audacity to remind me I had products to pick up. I firmly informed them I was no longer interested in the products and they could do whatever they wished with them. I have never seen them nor heard from them since. I must say, I truly do like the SA-8 and the Industroclean. But, I will not be foolish enough to get caught up in that again. More power to you for bringing some of this to light. But remember, not all representatives are like that. Mr. & Mrs. B and Mr. & Mrs. J were a good example of that. I suggest to anyone who is thinking about Amway, make sure you get yourself into a good upline. That makes all the difference in the world. I am selling Avon now, and I am much happier with that. I don't have the PYRAMID hanging over my head. With Avon, if you sign someone else up to sell, all you get is a one time "finders fee" so to speak. Well, enough on this chapter of my book. Ha Ha Ha Ha Again, thank you and keep up the good work. Let people know the truth. Oh, and the reason I ran across you page, I was looking to see if Amway was in the legal news again about their Pyramid Practices.
Subject: Your Amway analysis Wed, 11 Feb 1998 Russel: I enjoyed your break down of the Amway 'opportunity'. I went thru a similar experience as you did. I rescued myself after months of struggle fighting with my inner self and my fiancee (and almost lost her over this). I mostly agree with your observations and analysis. I was almost ready to sign up just as you did, believing that I had little to lose. I was curious and experimented with not listening to tapes and not going to meeting for 2 weeks, in order to find out why doing these things are 'essential to success'. Obviously, the hype wore off and I regained logical thinking. I bluntly turned down my would-be sponsor. I am FREE. I want to share the funniest statement I've heard made by a Diamond during a rally. He said that no one will fail in this business because there are so many top notch people helping him. His example, Bill Gates was surrounded with talented executives; even a potato would become a millionaire in that situation and Amway are loaded with such talants. As we know, Bill Gate is manipulating the people around him, not the other way around. I do feel a bit sorry for my would-be sponsor; he was fairly green in the Amway cult himself. Incidentially, I am also a software engineer.
Subject: Amway...Amnotway! Wed, 11 Feb 1998 Hi, Russell: Thanks for the informative page on Amway..or Amnotway now. Was recruited, but wanted to find out how it really WORKED...didn't see it at the first meeting with distributors...now I know why!! *laugh* Oh, the quote is: The truth will piss you off, then it will set you free....*wink* Thanks for the considerable effort that must have gone into telling your Amway story on the net...I'm sure many have benefited. San Diego shirt in pics? Live there..I used to, will move back in 5 years...GREAT place to call home. Miss it. Thanks again. Ciao!
Subject: finished your amway story. Wed, 11 Feb 1998 It still amazes me when I think about the fact that every time I seem to meet either someone I haven't seen in a long time or a total stranger they almost always seem to be trying to sell me on Amway. I live outside Washingto D.C. and I'm telling you flat out that the number of dirty underhanded politicians in this place can't hold a candle to the number of these little "salesmen". Or should I use the phrase that an old friend from the army used on me the other day. "Junior business executive assistant". Amazing I hadn't seen the guy in four years, and now he's asking me to go to his little meeting at the hilton tommorrow night. I've got to tell 'ya, I wasn't as quick as you. I actually signed up. (and of course failed) Then, call me "stupid" any time now, signed up again a year later. I guess at that point in my life I was still believing that I could reach the American "get rich quick" dream. Four years later, all I can do is sit here and laugh at myself for being so stupid. But the funny thing is, I think I'll go with him tommorrow night, make him pay for my ticket, get a free dinner, and then think up about the most ridiculous excuse I can, Like maybe "I'm terminally ill and wouldn't want to hurt all my great new friends with my loss." and then simply leave and have one of the best laughs I've had in a long time knowing that the poor guy's still out there trying (and failing) to make a quick buck. By the way, I've got my own great business going here. Send me fifty bucks in an unmarked package, and I'll be sure to mail you eternal youth and happiness at least once a month. Laugh now, but I'm telling you, in todays world, I'll most likely be a millionaire in a matter of months with that one. By the way, I remember those John Sestina tapes. I had a friend that I swear god, had every book and tape that Amway ever sanctioned or put out. Of course he's bankrupt now, for the fourth time probably, but he's got a hell of a library and tape collection.
Subject: hey hows it going?
Thu, 12 Feb 1998
Hi!!
I have been a distibuter for a while know. What I have learned is that
uneducated people like you hurt others opportunities to grow and prosper. I
wish more people like you would just get involved and see the savings in your
own check book, and also see cash flow from business you had helped grow,
before you continue to blow smoke. I know a multitude of people who have and
are at this time making very good money and also I have helped dozens of
people feel better about themsevles, and in some cases we have saved people
from getting divorces. So please talk to some people in Amway who are
building profitable businesses before passing on this misinformation.
Thu, 12 Feb 1998 Hi. I am fairly new at this E-Mail thing so please forgive me. I just finished reading your Amway story and I must say it sounds a little familiar. Unfortunately for me and for my family I did not have access to this information a year and a half ago. Although that isn't very long for some it was long enough for us to blow a lot of money we didn't have. What is so crazy about the whole thing is I'm not even sure what happened. I started out a normal human being and for about 6 to 8 months I turned into this droid who couldn't even make a simple financial decision without picking up the phone.
Subject: Your Amway page...
Thu, 12 Feb 1998
Dear Russell,
I have a story that is so scary, so bizarre, and so diabolical that it
can literally be turned into a horror film. I would like to entitle it
"Zombies Amongst Us". (Just to let you know, some of the circumstances of
this story have been changed in case any amway spies recognize me). I was at
a local eatery, stuffing my face and watching a ball game, when someone
suddenly approached me, grabbed me by the shoulders and loudly exclaimed my
name. I didn't recognize him at first, but as I began to study his features,
a sudden spark of recognition settled in. He was a friend of mine from high
school who I had not seen or been in contact with in over 13 years. We sat
down and chatted for a good while, getting reaquainted and laughing over some
of our escapades in school from by-gone years. It was actually a very
pleasant encounter and I felt bad that I had not made an effort to be in
contact with him before the passing of those 13 years. We exchanged numbers
and parted ways. As I was driving home, feeling nostalgic, I couldn't help
but feel a little bothered by the fact that he would not mention what he did
for a living and seemed very closed mouthed about his life in general.
Everything we discussed, was either centered around the past or my current
state of affairs. Anyway, assuming my friend would never call and slowly
forgetting about that chance meeting, I went about my business when suddenly
he called up. I was surprised and pleased that he wanted to hang out. But
after the ensuing small talk, he suddenly hit me with what I consider a
"devastating" question, he asked, "How would you like to make some extra
income?" (<--- Not Verbatim.) My head started spinning. I couldn't believe
my ears! He was calling me to basically sell me something, not because he
wanted to be a friend again. What was worse, was that the "jargon" he was
using in his speech sounded like rote memorized lines out of some sales
manual. But I decided to give him a chance and meet with him a few days
later. I was hoping that I was wrong. I COULDN'T HAVE BEEN MORE RIGHT. This
is where the story gets very eerie if not out right creepy. He came to my
place with a tie and shirt and a presentation kit. I thought, "uh oh!!!!"
Then, instead of kicking back or even making a pretense of being social, he
directly went into his presentation. Suffice it to say that everything your
buddy Ted relayed to you was basically relayed to me, just via another mouth.
I was shocked!!! I mean all the words that came pouring out of his mouth for
those two hours were typical, rehearsed, out of a manual, sales tactical,
jargon!!!! He didn't even need a calculator to compute the figures, because
he already had the answers memorized! What was scary was that he didn't even
recognize how phony and how cartoonish he appeared and sounded! I sat there
dazed and bored. His animated hand gestures and exclamations of enthusiasm
reminded me of something out of a science fiction movie. Watching him go
through that long speech with forced excitement and almost Shakespearean drama
was amusing and somewhat tragic. The funny part was, he never mentioned the
words amway until the very end, just as in your situation. Even more bizarre
was that everything Ted recited to you about the business was said to me
exactly the same with all words, commas and exclamation points intact. You
would think these sales reps would be trained to tailor their presentations to
match the clients. But rather, I received the "crackerjack" version that all
the dopes in the trailer parks probably get. I was insulted!!! I mean he
didn't even try to be personal during all this. He basically read his script
and put in my name where it says "fill in potential dupe's name". What was
even more insulting was his abject phoniness and attempt to try and fake a
social aura before he walked out the door. What a shock!!! I felt like I
should have paid money for a ticket for having to witness this staged play of
a comic tragedy. In his "Zombie" eyes, I was not a friend he hadn't seen in
over a decade, just another downline dummy. Amway should be called shamway or
scamway. Boo to them for turing this weak-minded friend of mine, who always
had trouble in high school, into a mindless, emotionless, marionette.
This next letter is from a 21 year old intern at the company where I work. Somehow this web page always manages to work its way into my "casual" conversations. :)
Thu, 12 Feb 1998
Hey ,
I just wanted to let you know I checked out your section devoted to
Amway. I think I now have a better understanding of why you despise
such a company. Anyway thanks for giving me the website addresses I
appreciate it. See you tomorrow.
Subject: Amway
Thu, 12 Feb 1998
Sorry you are so negative about Amway but I am getting to be very
successful at it and I am only 21. I have business in 3 states in 7
months. It really does work and I hang out with people who are very
successful even a guy who got his tax returns back and made $120,000
last year. This business is based on God's principles of success. Even
if I would never make money in Amway I would thank my sponser because
this business has brought me closer to GOD. I have become a better
person just because of this business and my spiritual link with God is
better now than it was before and that is priceless. After we die none
of this will ever matter so why spend the rest of your life criticizing
the Amway opportunity. This business has also helped me quit drinking.
There are many good things Amway has to offer and this is the most
important one. We live a short life so enjoy, but don't try and destroy
other peoples dreams. You definitly aren't going to steal mine. When I
am rich I'll write you again. By the way, I'll be direct this year. I
will never have a job and will be able to raise my kids myself. That is
how God intended it to be.
The problem with todays society is that daycare centers are raising our
children and the husband and wife have jobs and never get to see each
other and that usually ends in divorce and the kids end up misfits. So
see, that is the problem. what is the problem with people wanting to
improve their life?
Anyway, you are totally wrong about the business and I am living proof.
Feel free to write me.
Subject: Your Amway story (part 1) Thu, 12 Feb 1998 I like your story. You have a good perspective on things! As one who is also in the computer business; stay in the computer business. It's more fun.
Subject: My Book/Your Page Thu, 12 Feb 1998 Russell, My name is Kenny Bridges, I am new and very green to the internet. I initially got hooked up to promote a book that I just finished and self-published about the Amway Corporation, and my experience with the Britt System. I stumbled on to Sidney Swartz's site a couple of months ago and he bought a copy of my book. He has been very helpful, if you talk to him, tell him I said hi. Anyway, Now I've found yours, it, and Sidney's are by far the best anti-Amway sites I have come accross. You may have heard about my book by now, UNCOMMON FREEDOM: THE OTHER SIDE Escaping the Amway Deception. I just finished putting together a web page to promote my book, and plan to expand it soon. I would like to link off of your page (don't have a clue how to do it though) if you don't mind, and link yours off mine. Let me know. http://www.idir.net/~kbridges Sincerely, Kenny B.
Subject: Your Amway page... Thu, 12 Feb 1998 Hi, My name is ***** and I was just recently introduced to the Amway business. I haven't decided on what to do so I'm in the process of making up my mind wheather or not to go with it. This opportunity would be great for me because I have a 15 month old baby which takes alot of my time. I want to do something where I can make some extra cash but still stay home with my daughter. Amway sounds like a great idea but my problem is that I'm just not the sales person type. I'm not one to go out and knock on doors I just don't have it in me. I'm really not a good talker. My husband sells insurance and he as I say has a gift. He could sell anything. I wish I could be like him and just take this opportunity and go for it all the way. Do you think I should try this out? Or would I be wasting my time and money?
Subject: YourAmwaystory(part3)
Fri, 13 Feb 1998
I hope you don't judge marriage on the marital statistics of the world.
Like you do amway on these guys.
Subject: Re: Your Amway page...
Fri, 13 Feb 1998
I think it's pretty obvious that I'm recommending you should NOT do
Amway no matter who you are. Rather than attempting to explain my
reasons again, though, let me just recommend that you go back and finish
reading what I wrote about it on my web page, and you'll see why.
Subject: Your Amway story (part 2) Fri, 13 Feb 1998 in my opinion your an idiot!
And an excellent and well-researched opinion you're's is, if I may say so.
Subject: Your Amway page... Fri, 13 Feb 1998 Hi Russ - I just wanted you to know that if I got anything out of your anti-Amway pages I am more objective and skeptical - and glad that I am! Thanks for the inspiration!
Subject: Your Amway story (part 2) Fri, 13 Feb 1998 Thank you for possibly saving my daughter from Amway. You may be a stanger but some thing are better told by a stanger than parents. Plus you made it entertaining for us "just boring hard workers" in Texas.
Subject: Your Amway story (part 3) Fri, 13 Feb 1998 I just wanted to say thanks for the information. I was just recently approached to get started in the "business" a couple of days ago. Since I have been muling it over wondering what I should do. I guess I was caught in the hype and my own common sense was blocked. Again, thanks.
Subject: Re: Amway Intro
Sat, 14 Feb 1998
Hi Russell,
Hi there! how are you? I hope fine. I just write this mail
to you, cause I read your Amway intro and there are so many incorrect
facts! I don't mean you are a bad guy, just I try to tell You should
be more well informed about this great business, I'd say one the
most important business here in SouthAmerica and Japan. Check out
around the future!
Best regards from Chile,
Subject: Your Amway story (part 2) Sat, 14 Feb 1998 In the past fifteen years I have yet to meet a "successfull" amway person. When I sence the come on I simply ask " are you with amway" if the answer is yes I say "I'm not interested" and these people simpley go away!
Subject: Your Amway page... Sun, 15 Feb 1998 Greetings from New Zealand, Yes I used to be involved in AMWAY about 9 years ago and joined for about 3 to 6 mths. I beleived all the hype the tapes and books seminars you name it I was going to make it BIG !!! Well it never did happen you see the fool proof system of getting paid for the work that you did is as you say it wasn't fool proof. My bonus check never got paid,the money I paid for tapes white boards was some how lost? (I acheived the rank of 21% in 3 months) I know what you say is TRUE.(Everything) Out of that bad experience the worst thing wasn't about not getting my bonus cheques,it was about involving the many friends and family who I told about how their DREAMS were going to become real. Amway still sends shivers down my spine...but from that I am a still firm beleiver in Multi Level Marketing and from that experience I know what I won't be doing that is HYPING up a lot people and finding a company that isn't AMWAY...
Subject: Your Amway story (part 3) Sun, 15 Feb 1998 Dear Sir, Thank you for your wonderful comments on Amway. I was recently presented with the opportunity to join. But the idea did not sit well. I work for a large drug retail firm and am very familiar with selling at a discount. this gave me a edge to see that buying from Amway would not save me any money at all. this upset the person that wanted me to join because just from owning my own business for almost ten years I know this idea of independent marketing could not work. I must say also the free samples of coffee I was given to try were HORRIBLE AND WEAK.i HAVE HAD STRONGER KOOL-LAID. Anyway Thank you. Good luck on your quests. a friend.
Subject: Finished your Amway story... Mon, 16 Feb 1998 Hello there Mr. Glasser, My name is ***** and I'm from Malaysia. I was approached by a friend who said that she'd like to come over to my place since she had something to say to me. And yes, what you wrote, about how they tried to convince me to join Amway, is word perfect. I was nearly convinced until at the end when, just before leaving, the Amway distributor told me not to speak about Amway to anyone for fear of hearing negative statements. That caused me to pause. So, I phoned my sister and she suggested that I look Amway up in the internet. And I'm glad that I have. I wouldn't say that it's actually a cult, but it's manipulative all the same. So, thank you, you've made me realise that I'm not nuts for not wanting to join Amway. Now, the only thing left is, how do I help my friend? Yours sincerely,
Subject: Your Amway page... Mon, 16 Feb 1998 Russell....... I love Ginny's story so far....please dont make us wait to long for "the rest of the story" !!!!!! It has been almost a year since we woke up from our "nightmare" and we still can't believe what an impact our 3 years of "amway living" has had on our lives... we still look at each other from time to time and say "What the HELL were we thinking" !!!! Thanks to you and all the other AMO pages out there we know that we were not the only ones that got trapped by the "dream-stealing... mind controlling...Dexter Yeager clones" !!!! Thanks Again
Subject: A "Pro-Amway" site I found Mon, 16 Feb 1998 Check this out: http://www.crown-bound.com/ Two guys with an Xian attitude and a support of SPAMway. They actually talk about how to choose churches. The only thing they DON'T do is give business guidance -- wait until you see the reasons!
Subject: Your Amway story (part 1) Mon, 16 Feb 1998 You are so full of shit!! If you had half a pea brain you would realize that the training you go through for school. Later night studying and earlier morning sleep deprivation and then critizing an organization that thrives on educating they're forces the same way are no different. DuH!!!!!!!!! What an idiot. Success in any line of business is achieved through the repetative excersises that are required to make the engine turn. Duh!!! I wish you success in everything you do. But unless you have actually practiced in the realm of success principles for what ever you do, don't blab your idiotic mouth. Duh!!! Get a life and quit wasting your time condeming something you have no knowledge about.!!!!! You succeed only one way. Practice, Practice, Practice. Focusing your attention on what you want to achieve in life, and Keep your fucking mouth shut and don't waste your time. Nothing you say makes any sense unless you don't believe in continuing education to maintain a professional career. i.e. Real Estate, Law, Doctor. They spend more money in continuing education than any Amway distributor will spend in entire lifetime building a successful Amway Business.. If I encountered an idiot like you in my prospecting. "God forbid I should do that"!! I would have dropped you like a perverbial hot terd and went to the next guy. I can't believe you actually spent all that time to put together a Web page like this. What are you trying to do "Save the World!!!" - I don't think so. Get a grip - Have a happy life :-)
Thanks! Duh! For! Duh! The! Duh! Last Sentence! Duh!
Subject: Your Amway story (part 1) Mon, 16 Feb 1998 One more thing! Price vs. Cost. You generate about 15,800 in volume you make about $2,000 or so. You spent maybe in the extreme $300 in stuff $56 on tools for prospecting. $15 for a seminar ticket and maybe another $100 dollars totally tax dedutible. I guess you really got ripped off huh?
Subject: You guessed it! Mon, 16 Feb 1998 Russell, My wife and I loved your material. We couldn't put it down! You are a careful thinker with a clever wit (typical of software developers, of which I am also). We've had our own interesting experiences with pesty distributors, but have never succumbed to their tactics. We do have a friend who has recently joined who stopped by tonight on his way to a meeting. I found it interesting that he threw out the 1% divorce rate statistic. I had not yet read your response on your FAQ page, but I basically told him that I found the statistic EXTREMELY difficult to believe. With the general population's divorce rate being somewhere around 50%, even 25% for active Amway members would be remarkable...but 1%??? Anyway, after he had left, my wife and I read your FAQ, and had to chuckle at your response to the 1% figure. We really care about our friend who just joined. I asked him to check it out carefully. I told him to do research on the internet (I will point him to your site if the opportunity arises) and not to blindly accept everything that people tell him just because the person was an upline or a direct, etc.. Anyway, do you have any other suggestions for our friend?
Subject: Your Amway story (part 2) Tue, 17 Feb 1998 It's really unfortunate that you had a bad experience with the Amway business. I am a Amway distributor and the thing that I realized is that the problem with the Amway "plan" is that anyone can get in (and usually does). I am fortunate to have a very trustworthy and honest upline that has been there for me through the thick and the thin. I'm sure that if you or one of your upline would have been dedicated to stick with it you could have made a profit, and helped others make a profit. I have, and I have been able to keep a relationship with my friends and family also. I don't hound them or lie to them, I just present the facts and let them make a decision. Obviously not every person is suited for the Amway business, and just because you had a bad experience means that it is a bad deal. If I never made another dime at this, I was lucky enough to meet a woman at a meeting that eventually I married and started a family with.
Subject: Your Amway story (part 3) Wed, 18 Feb 1998 Very interesting stuff, Having just been approached for the same thing I knew that as soon as I was at home I was going on the Internet. I am in England and have been approached by Americans. Therefore I knew the Internet would have some info. The main thing that gave the game away was the word cult being used a few times.. as in we are not a cult.. etc if you are not a cult i thought why mention the word. Thank you very much for being clever enough to put all info on the net, the tape will be returned in the specified time limit untouched. Oh one last thing I was trying to check out one of the 'Amway is a cult site' and was denied access? Its all very creepy.
Subject: Your Amway page... Wed, 18 Feb 1998 Hi Amway are starting to appear in my area!!!!(Northeast UK) Do you have a list of a awkward questions I could give my friends to ask Amway when they 'knock' at the door? Thanks to checking your site and others, I have made the decision to avoided them just 1 hour before the meeting. Please keep these sites alive. Excellent!!
Subject: Finished your Amway story... Thu, 19 Feb 1998 I REALLY APPRECIATED YOUR EFFORT IN MAKING THE WORLD BETTER ACCORDING TO YOUR INFO DO YOU THINK REXALL, NUSKIN IS THE OTHER AMWAY ARE THERE ANY MLM COMPANY YOU THINK IS WORK AND FAIR TKS FOR YOUR HELP IN ADVANCE
Wed, 18 Feb 1998 Wow that was really great, all those things that those amway people said taken out of context and minipulated exactaly the way you whanted it to be. I loved the way you told people how Amway says you find 10 and they find 10 and soon you have 10^10 and you have 10,000,000,000 people but i never heard and amway distributer say that, or use that example (funny). How come i'm gettting a check from amway? Why is it that that im a 19 year old that owns my own house? Yah, it's a good scam isn't it? It only lasted 36 years and been declared legal by are own government. It's amazing that you had all that time to set up such a web site. If you were recently looking for a business opportunity then you can't be that wealthy, but you set up such a beautiful site with all sorts of graphics and colors. I wonder who paid for you to set it up. Yah, why don't you display this letter on you site. You are so full of it it's not even remotely funny. For your information the bonus checks come from product. Manufacturing costs are only 15% of the retail cost. Amway takes out the middle man and hands out in bonuses 65-70%, of the remailing 85%, Amway gets to keep 15-20%(so they are happy) distributers that have at least $200.00 in volume and up get 65-70% (so they are happy). If you don't believe those figures just ask a retail store such as Abercrombie & Fitch how much the manufaturing cost of their goods are then check out the price tag (it's over 200% mark up). (My sister sponcered me, her brother-in-law sponcered her-you know how much family trys to scam each other) Now from what i have been tought in Amway i know i should probably not give you the full piece of my mind so i won't, but from this point on... I am going to do everything possible to show to other people that your a liar, i will pray that God has mercey on you. I understand that you probably honestly belive what you are telling people is the TRUTH, becasue you wouldn't be able to live with yourself otherwise. Humor me, write back to me, i dare you.
Unfortunately, I was too chicken (and too unimpressed) to accept his dare. Next time you should double-dog-dare me.
Subject: Thank you for saving another one!!!! Wed, 18 Feb 1998 Thank you. Thank you. Thank you! I just recently was called by someone. He approached me after hearing me enthusiastically speak to someone else about computers and my own new software consulting firm. He then decided I was a good target. I innocently assumed when he said he would help me with my business, that maybe he would. Seems VERY similiar to your story, doesn't it? He called me a month later before mentioning this "business opportunity", then a couple days later to discuss it. I was very cautious about his vagueness, but I like you, decided what can I lose from just speaking with him. I then met him for coffee yesterday, and he now has encouraged me to attend this conference on it. He mentioned during coffee that it was Amway at the top, and I knew almost nothing about the company other than my grandparents used to sell it, and my mom always bought their soap and vitamins. I decided I would go to the meeting, but do my research first. I hopped on the web, went to their home page and scoured it. It seemed ok, but I was actually surprised by their FAQs talking about "Is Amway a cult?", etc. When I was done I decided to go for a second opinion. That was when I searched for amway on excite.com and found this site. THANK YOU! I've read the entire story and it makes a lot of sense. Since this person is picking me up for this meeting, I'm going to go out of curiosity, but I now can walk in with an informed mind. And walk out probably being very scared. ;) I won't go on with my story any longer, because I'm sure you hear from many with the same story. But I just want to thank you for using "that evil internet" to post this most important information. Thank you for being a person with a soul and much consideration.
Subject: Your Amway story (part 3) Thu, 19 Feb 1998 Hi - I just read all the information that you had as I am one of those people that are considering joining their group. The funny thing is - so many things you have said have happened exactly as you have said them and all my questions have not been answered especially the important ones such as the money you make which of course you need to pay the bills. It was definitely interesting and I always like to hear both sides and go with my gut feelings cause they are always right. When did all this happen? And now I know why I hit a vane when I said I was on the internet a lot! LOL It's too bad life stinks so bad and you have to be a scumbag to make it in this world. I was really hoping that this was an honest business with nice people but I did see at the meeting last night the two faces of some. Thanks for the information. I am going to a showing Friday and will call them on all of this. Thanks for the ammo.
Subject: Amway Thu, 19 Feb 1998 Your website is a very good description of the use of cult techniques for commercial purposes. Thank you for a very useful piece of work. Your site was mentioned by someone in the Religious Issues Forum of Compuserve. A visitor there seemed to be advertsing a new outfit called Amnet which possibly had the same structure and might be an offshoot of Amway. She was advocating it as a "Porn-free Internet". It provoked an interesting discussion of the nature of cults - Dominance-Dependency Syndrome.
Subject: Scams Thu, 19 Feb 1998 Hi, Russell, My husband and I found your page during the course of researching Amway. Last nite we were guests of a friend and professional counselor of mine to go to hear about "business oportunities". The speaker represented his own business which was part of World Wide Group, L.L.C. otherwise, as we found out only during the last 15 minutes of this 2 1/2 hour ordeal, know as Amway Corp by any other name. Fortunately, being almost 50 years of age(with a retirement larger than what we could realistically expect to make in the proposed scheme), and gifted with a great nose for sniffing out "snake oil" pitches we were not sold. I am very concerned about my friend, however, and can see why a sales pitch like what we heard can attract the young, the poor, the frustrated and the naive. I'm hoping that some of the information I've printed from your site and others might be enough to offset or at least balance the info she has bought into thus far with Amway. Thanks so much for being willing to follow your "save the world" ideals even if you have had thoughts about how silly it could appear. You may only help a few, but isn't even that worth it? You have been true to your own principles and convictions and THAT is what it is truly all about.
Subject: Your Amway story (part 3) Thu, 19 Feb 1998 Hello: Read your pieces, and am sending along my experience. I was contacted by a casual friend who made the pitch, and the only reason I let him come over was that his home had burned a few months ago, and he and his wife were having financial problems, and they had my sympathy. He brought over a 'friend,' a brother-in-law actually, and it wasn't until then that I found out they were pitching Amway. The sessions began exactly as you described, but having seen how scams like this work (I am a business editor at a newspaper), my method of ending the contact was simply to say that my financial interests were going in another direction and wished them every success. No negatives, because part of the Amway psychological and strategic game plan is counter-punching. They can't counter if you don't punch. To shorten the story, when my friend wanted to come back with another higher level Amway associate to 'pick up' the stuff they had left for me to look at, I just suggested we meet for dinner at a local restaurant and talk about it. They agreed enthusiastically. The restaurant, however, was actually an ethnic greasy spoon (chicken and ribs) in a bad part of town, but the owner advertises with me and we know each other well. I didn't feel unsafe, but those two lilly-white guys in business suits in a crowded black soul food place really stood out. We never actually had dinner: they took the stuff back and left after a few minutes. Haven't heard from them since. Anyway, keep up the good work. Unfortunately, the world is full of stupid and easily-led people who feel an overwhelming need to belong.
Subject: amway Thu, 19 Feb 1998 dear sir, my name is *****, and my little sister just recently got involved in this pyramid get rich quick scam. she didn't see any scam at first, and honestly i didn't either. she is an 18 y.o. college freshman and got involved to help pay for college. i tried to warn her about the pyramid scam, but neither of us could find any problems at the time. i checked out the math last night and i don't see how it could work. i'm glad there are people like you out there who aren't afraid to speak out about these scams. hopefully with your story i can help her from getting into money trouble. thank you very much for publishing your story on the web.
Fri, 20 Feb 1998
Russell,
You are a jobless idiot. you dont even know scripture. You are not even
qualified to kiss Yagers ass.
Actually I do have a job. The rest of what you said is probably true.
Subject: okay by me... Fri, 20 Feb 1998 Personally I think you're doing a good job (regardless of your age!). I do belong to an "MLM" outfit but it's because it's the only way I can receive their particular nutritional formulas (not Amway or Herbalife or Nutralife etc). Nutritional products, unfortunately, yet fortunately, are not all the same. I'm glad someone is out there to warn people about MLM's, Pyramid scams and etc. This way if they can stand the cold water, then by all means let them jump in; but at least someone has told them what to expect. shadow
Subject: Re: Amway and MLMs
Fri, 20 Feb 1998
Hi! I hope you have some time to answer a few questions. I went to the
library and tried to find books that were anti-Amway (for lack of a better
term). But unfortunately, I could not find any, not even Steven
Butterfield's. So I thought I'd get the "other side" from my few
interviews. So far my thesis is shaping up to be:
People get into Amway and other MLMs because it is risk-free, has
unlimited potential, is flexible, you have no boss, you earn what
you're worth, and offers early retirement. But are all these
reasons valid and logical and is it still worth it going into
Amway despite the reasons suporting the contrary?
What I'll be doing is dealing with each of these topics and providing the
pros and cons to each reason. Then at the end, I will provide my own
opinion of the topic.
If you could, could you tell me what you think of the following questions?
1) Have you ever condsidered going into Amway when you are retired?
2) How has Amway affected your personal outlook on life? (personally, it
has taught me to be more discerning and less gullible about sales pitches)
3) Amway deals a lot w/ motivational tactics. What is your opinion about
people like Tony Robbins, the 'guru' of motivational speakers? Is his
style somewhat like Amway's?
Umm, I guess that's all for now! Most of my anti-Amway/MLM info is coming
directly from web pages which I'll treat on my paper as interviews. So
these questions that I'm asking you are just supplementary to my original
topic and I might incorporate them into my concluding paragraphs.
Hope to hear from you soon!
Subject: Re: Amway and MLMs
Sat, 21 Feb 1998
Let me take a few shots at your thesis and the things which appear to
me to be false. This is not to say that your thesis is wrong in any
way; people do, in fact, get into MLM's for the reasons that you stated,
but those reasons are based on misperceptions.
> People get into Amway and other MLMs because it is risk-free,
Obviously it is not risk-free, as people can and do find themselves
losing thousands of dollars without ever reaching the direct level. It
takes a minimum of about 48 people to make a direct distributor. (I
base this on a catchy little expression they use, "Me, you, 6 4 2"
meaning you go direct by recruiting 6 people who each recruit 4 who each
recruit 2, and 6*4*2 = 48.) So even in an ideal scenario, there must be
at least 48 peons for every direct, although in reality the ratio is
about 100 to 1. This is partly because roughly have of the distributors
are inactive and not recruiting anyone.
It's the distributors who are not active but who choose to "work" the
business (i.e., the ones who thought they could make money at it) that
get screwed. Any distributor will tell you that the vast number of
books, tapes, and meetings that they want you to spend your money on
"are optional, but so is success."
As I mentioned in my web page, they have thousands of tapes and advise
you to listen to one each day. They have small meetings several times a
week, usually running at ten bucks a head, and large meetings every few
months. This is not a cheap lifestyle, especially with travel expenses
and the amount of time they pull you away from normal activities like
working, sleeping, and yes, relaxing. (People do need to do this, you
know.)
I do not think this fits the qualifications of being "risk free".
> has unlimited potential,
MLM has unlimited potential, but so does everything else. Recent
guesses indicate that there are probably less than a thousand diamond
distributors -- a few thousand at best -- and not even all of them are
millionaires as such. But according to Thomas J. Stanley's book, "The
Millionaire Next Door", the number of millionaires in America as a whole
is about 3.5 million.
So do the math. 3.5 million / 260 million people in America means that
a little more than 1% of all Americans are millionaires. By contrast,
Amway's numbers are 500 diamonds (rough guess) divided by three million
distributors -- that's .00017, less than 2 percent of 1 percent!
"Unlimited potential" is a very relative thing, you know. It must also
be pointed out that an MLM really needs an infinite number of
distributors in order to make even a sizable fraction of them wealthy.
Obviously it doesn't work out this way.
> is flexible,
Basically true.
> you have no boss,
Possibly true, although some might argue that your boss is, in reality,
your upline. Especially at the high levels, these people do not like to
be disobeyed.
> you earn what you're worth,
Yes, if you think the average distributor is worth $87 a year.
> and offers early retirement.
I guess I'd have to say that's true; people who go diamond either do it
in a few years or don't do it at all, with most falling into the latter
category.
> If you could, could you tell me what you think of the following questions?
> 1) Have you ever condsidered going into Amway when you are retired?
I think this question in particular is a little weak since it is not
something Amway recruiters would want you to do. They have two primary
demographic: people around our age, young, just starting out,
success-driven -- people who will spend a lot of time, effort, and money
on the business before realizing what's going on.
The second group is people who are already successful at other work.
This is for two reasons: first, they have a lot of money to burn, and
second, they give Amway the outward appearance of respectability --
"Look!" they can say. "We have all these doctors and lawyers, and
they're better than you, so if they got in then you should too!"
Actually doctors and lawyers are not less susceptible to being taken for
a ride than any other normal people.
The other questions look ok to me.
Bear in mind that everything I say is based on my own perceptions and
critical thinking. For instance, notice I said how many diamonds there
"probably" are. The actual number is very difficult to obtain. Try it
yourself if you don't believe me -- call or email any official Amway
number, or ask any local distributor. My experience has been that they
either won't know or tell you they can't give out that information.
Because my opinions are highly subjective, it's better that you refer
to the arguments and not quote me as an authority figure whose opinion
"proves" things about Amway.
If you are really into the research, the best thing you can do beyond
just browsing the web is get in touch with some distributors.
I have more to say but I have to go somewhere. Will write more later.
Subject: Re: Amway and MLMs (continued)
Sat, 21 Feb 1998
> If you could, could you tell me what you think of the following questions?
Now that I think about it, I may have misinterpreted your questions. I
wasn't sure whether you were asking me what I thought of them as
questions you would ask Amway distributors, or whether you were asking
me them personally. I answered them in the first way. Here's my
answers in the second way.
> 1) Have you ever condsidered going into Amway when you are retired?
Of course not. What a silly question.
> 2) How has Amway affected your personal outlook on life? (personally, it
> has taught me to be more discerning and less gullible about sales pitches)
As a matter of fact it has had an incredibly positive effect on my
life. When I chose to backlash against Amway, I backlashed fully
against all their principles. Some of those principles are the negative
and demeaning ones that say life sucks, working at a job is just this
side of hell, and you're most likely to die broke. I figured if I'm
going to oppose that kind of thinking then I'd better set a model for
the opposite. So I make very sure that I have a job that I can enjoy, I
have looked into investment and retirement figures, and in general I'm
feeling a lot more satisfied and upbeat about life than I was before I
met Amway.
So in a warped way, Amway improved my life. But only in the way that a
bad experience builds one's character. Sometimes a near death
experience or a debilitating disease can be considered to be a great
strength builder; many people have found that getting fired from a
certain job is the best thing that ever happened to them. But I don't
regard it as good that those things happen.
> 3) Amway deals a lot w/ motivational tactics. What is your opinion about
> people like Tony Robbins, the 'guru' of motivational speakers? Is his
> style somewhat like Amway's?
Can't stand them, honestly. They sound very patronizing to me. I
don't feel like I need motivation to do well, and repetitive advice gets
on my nerves. That doesn't mean they aren't useful to somebody; it's
just that I don't listen to them.
Earlier, I was going to recommend that you think about interviewing
current distributors. I don't know if this paper you're writing is
important enough to warrant that kind of in-depth study, but you might
be interested to get up close and personal to them.
In that vein, there are three issues that I always bring up, and they
have three stock answers which you will probably hear time and again. I
do recommend that you bring these two people.
QUESTION: "What is your current pin level?" (Or executive level, or
whatever your particular MLM measures by -- I'll make these questions
Amway-centric since that's what I know best.)
ANSWER: "I'm going direct in just a couple of months."
INTERPRETATION: "Right now nothing at all, but I'm so upbeat that I'm
SURE I'll do better soon."
QUESTION: "How much money did you make last month?"
ANSWER: "Plenty." OR, "I don't discuss my finances with strangers. OR,
"Let's not talk about me, let me introduce you to this other guy who is
doing very well."
INTERPRETATION: "None, or hardly any." The third answer is particularly
interesting, because the branching structure of an MLM practically
GUARANTEES that someone will know a successful person if they go upline
a few levels. But keep that within the context that one in a hundred
have gone direct, and even they don't make much more than someone in a
lower middle class job.
QUESTION: "How long have you been involved?"
ANSWER: If the answer is short, like a few months, they'll tell you. If
the answer is many years, they'll tell you "Fifteen years, but I only
made a commitment to get serious about the business last week" or
something like that.
INTERPRETATION: In spite of the claims about early retirement, most
people kick around the business for years and years without getting
anywhere. They are losing money while they are doing this. The more
successful distributors will say that these people are lazy, and they
may even jokingly call themselves lazy, but Amway does make the sales
pitch that one can be very successful with a very small amount of work.
Only after a member joins does he hear about the magnitude of commitment
he is being asked for; and he doesn't break even in the interlude, he
pays for the support system.
That's all I have to say for now. Let me know if this helps.
Subject: Your Amway story (part 3) Sat, 21 Feb 1998 I love your page. I have been approached by several CULT members over the years. Fortunatly for me I am a logical thinker and not greedy so I've managed to keep my money. Keep up the fight. Lonnie
Subject: Thanks Sat, 21 Feb 1998 Russell, I have now spent about 8 hours over two days jumping from link to link about Amway. I'm getting glassy eyed with all the facts and figures. Isn't that one of the mind-control techniques cults use? Overloading people with information? :) No, seriously, I truly enjoyed your page and you deserve a great deal of credit for spending the time and energy putting it together. The reason for my sudden fascination with Amway has to do with my sister and brother-in-law, "Cindy" and "Dave". About 7 months ago, they became involved in the Amway INA network. As you can probably guess, they immediately began prospecting family members to join up. Without warning, tapes began showing up in the mail along with incredibly cheerful messages (absolutely drenched with exclamation marks) from Dave. I have about seven of them sitting on my kitchen counter right now (and, to date, I haven't listened to one of them). We talk on the phone frequently and, as the months progressed, I kept getting regular progress reports on how absolutely fabulous their new business was doing. I had heard very little about Amway (except for one very lame attempt to sign me up about 10 years ago) and nothing about INA. I wasn't too interested but I thought as long as they enjoy it, good for them. In October, I went to see my parents and we got to talking about the Amway sell we were getting. My dad had listened to one of the tapes. Now, my dad worked in a for a Fortune 500 company for 30 years. He made it to the upper middle-managment ranks. He bought every single share of company stock he could get his hands on, made other sensible investments, earned a solid pension, and now, at 73, is retired and he and my mom are living an extremely comfortable life in the Southwest (when they're not jetting off 4-5 times a year to the exotic locales the Diamonds keep bringing up). Obviously, I was interested in hearing his take on Amway. His opinion was that the tape (I think it is the same one you might have been given) was the biggest pile of economic bunk he had ever heard. He got a real chuckle out of the "working for the establishment is a dead-end prospect" pitch. Basically, though, we agreed that it was fine if that is what they wanted to do with their free time. In December, my parents took me, Dave, Cindy and their two children to Europe for a week (Yes, all this was funded from the money Dad made in the "corporate hellhole"). Before we left, we all met and spent a couple of days at Dave and Cindy's house. Well, you can probably guess that this was an excellent opportunity to sell me and Dave really tried. He showed me a videos of all the Diamonds in their fancy houses. He gave me tubes of toothpaste. He gave me breath freshener (I laughed when I read on the web sites I visited about how people are constantly using this during meetings... Dave uses one of these a week). He "casually" brought out a starter kit, trotted out all the products and just as subtly offered to let me have at "his" price (which is as far as could tell was about 10% more than I could buy it for at retail...besides, I'm a single male and a box of laundry detergent excites me about much as discussions on deconstructing Nietzsche). He let me listen to the Amvox (Wow...you guys actually have voice mail???...Where do I sign!!!). I imagine it would have been far worse if my sister hadn't put her foot down and told him to leave me alone. I do love Cindy. I just got my trip pictures back and there is a picture of Dave with one of the infamous whiteboards "practicing" his pitch on me and my parents. Since we know Dave and his personality, we took all this with a grain of salt and still managed to have a great time on the trip. However, Dave was even stopping unsuspecting Europeans and prospecting for his "international downline" in between our sightseeing jaunts. I have to admit...they are doing well so far. Dave is a friendly, enthusiastic, likable guy. He is genuinely sold on Amway and they have recruited 14 downline people in the seven months they have been doing this. Based on what I have read, this is an excellent rate. If they don't flame out, they may even make it to the one half of one percent that make it to direct. Dave has done MLM before but it petered out after a few months. I'm curious to see if they will reach their goals in Amway. Since they are doing so well, I did begin to wonder if there was something to this program after all. On the one hand, they seemed be to growing a thriving business in an enthusiastic, positive environment. Not a bad thing, certainly. On the other hand, I couldn't seem to make the numbers add up the way they were presenting them. I have a B.A. in Economics and a Master's in Accounting and so I am very numbers-driven. An "Analytic" in Amwayese (or maybe someone afflicted with "detailitis" to borrow another phrase). The products didn't seem that cheap (even in the concentrated form) and all the incidental fees that they seemed to blow by as small seemed pretty steep in the aggregate. They currently get a check for about $30 a month from Amway but they also buy two tapes a week, a book a month, regularly attend meetings (with cover charges) and drive all over the place. In a couple of weeks, Dave is flying out to the West Coast for a motivational meeting (FED?) and that little jaunt will cost them about $1200 in total, including traveling expenses. That figure doesn't include the new tapes and books that Dave will probably pick up. Their little check disappears pretty quickly along with a lot of their other income. The fact that they are spending so much didn't bother me too much. I mean, there are start-up expenses in any new business and you have to expect a period before you break even. Most Amway dealers do not represent the business as a get-rich-quick scheme. However, before I signed up, what I wanted to know was what the payoff would be and when. I would love to roam the beaches of Bora Bora with wads of hundred dollar bills dropping out of my pockets but I don't really want to do it at the age of 85 with the aid of a four-prong walker. So, I got on the Internet and started surfing. There is a tremendous amount of dreck on the 'Net but if you search carefully you can usually find good information. What startled me though was, that once I started reading some of the sites about Amway, how they all jibed with one another and with my own experiences. This made me prick up my hours and started the eight-hour odyssey I mentioned above. As you know, the success statistics for Amway are appalling. Brad Orner's excellent analysis shows that 99.5% will never make much money, if at all and many will lose thousands trying to reach the elusive "jewel" levels. Even most directs lose money based on a research done by the Wisconsin Attorney Generals office. Only the top dogs will see the huge profits they dangle in front of peoples eyes. I would imagine by that point most of these people will have long since stopped deluding that they are offering a awesome business opportunity to others. Or maybe they will delude themselves. But I fail to see how you can feel good about something that will lose money for 99 out of 100 people you sell to. If you haven't guessed, I will not be signing up with Dave and Cindy. After reading through the information available on the internet, though, I am more concerned about what it will cost them and not just in monetary terms. Dave and Cindy are falling into the pattern described in numerous articles. They are constantly talking about their Amway "family", they go to the meetings, listen to the tapes and sell, sell, sell. This business is slowly consuming more and more of their life and, based on the articles I've read, this will only get worse. I love them dearly and want to see them succeed. I want them to have material comforts. I am glad they are trying to improve their lives. But, I think they are being played for suckers, which I don't want. Or they will get to the point where they are playing others for suckers....which I don't want either. As for me, I will stay in my corporate jungle tree house and store as many coconut stock certificates as I can get my paws on. Maybe I will try my hand at my own business later on if I feel it is ethical and truly provides a service that myself, my employees and the public can benefit from. In the meantime, thank you for your great web site. You (and others) provided me with good information and let me make an intelligent choice. Best of luck at your job and your new company if you decide to start one. Sincerely, A corporate rat P.S. When is your girlfriend going to finish her story? I'm dying of curiosity.
Subject: My reply to your Amway page Sun, 22 Feb 1998 Hi. Just to let you know that the Web is World Wide (!), I'm in Australia. And I'm a distributor. Sort of. For a long time (5 years) I tried to build the business using the system that I was sponsored into, unsuccessfully. I saw Amway as a means for me to make some money, so that I could use the extra to invest in a "real" business, and start making a really huge fortune! I bought the tapes, and the books, and went to the meetings. And I enjoyed it. It taught me a lot about believing in myself, for which I will be forever greatful. But I don't believe in the business anymore. I am quite prepared to accept that the problem was me - I am not prepared to do what is required. I also do not subscribe to the idea that I am a loser. In the last 10 years my salary has gone up 25% per year, as I moved jobs, or did what ever it took to keep my dreams alive. Amway has never contributed (financially) to this. And I am still a distributer, although I resigned and then signed up again because we moved away from our direct. Interestingly enough, the people who sponsored us the second time where from a different system, and they went to great lengths to pay out on the other system (IDA v/s Network 21, I think) - so much for brotherly love! Anyway, I'm still a distributer, because we like some of the products - the cleaning stuff - not the catalogue. What prompted me to write to you was a letter from one of your correspondents: We found that while it is true that we spend a lot of money on promotional material, it is offset by a couple of things you didn't mention. One isthe tax write offs we got. In our first year we got literally all the moneywe spent back in the form of a tax refund! Now this is something that occurs in Australia as well - people are encouraged to spend money because it is all tax deductable! That's fine, but a couple of points need stating. (From an Australian point of view - I'm not sure of the implications in America or elsewhere) Under Australian Tax Law it is illegal to do *anything* for the express purpose of avoiding tax. Many times I was told, come to the meeting, have a holiday away, and claim it as a tax deduction, because you were "building your business". What most people don't realise is that if you are audited, you can have a deduction disallowed if the Tax Office decides that the prime reason for the deduction was discovered not to have been for "business purposes" - as a friend of mine did - to his $20,000 penalty disappointment! To claim a deduction, you must first spend money. Yes? Ok, so I spend $1 I can reduce my taxable income by one dollar, so at the top marginal income tax rate in Australia of 47cents, I will get back as a refund 47cents. Yes? So the remaining 53 cents comes out of my pocket? Yes? So I'm only half as bad off, but I'm still out of pocket! The Australian Tax Office has issued a ruling specifically aimed at Amway, which says that unless the distributership is being run as a business (customers, retail volume - in fact a whole swag of conditions), then it is a hobby. As such no expenses are deductable, but no income is taxable. Which is actually very generous of them. What they could have done is condemn the whole marketing plan as a scam! Any way, keep up the good work! While I have nothing really against Amway, I do think potential distributers need to have a bit of a reality check - and your page and others like it certainly help. Thank you.
Subject: hello ! Sun, 22 Feb 1998 Hello mr. Russel, you have old information from Amway business ! Greetings from Austria !
Subject: almost got me too! Mon, 23 Feb 1998 hey , your web page was very valuable, i only got in as far as the first 150.00 goes so i feel pretty lucky in that regard, i was wondering if you had any advice as to how to get these people to leave you alone once they have their hooks into you? comments would be appreciated thanks
Subject: Amway Tue, 24 Feb 98 Hi Russell Just a note to say thanks for your Amway page. I live in the UK and was invited by some friends to find out about an exciting new opportunity - yes, you've guessed...Amway... I searched the internet and found your pages, as well as lots more. I'm hoping that the information I pass on will help my friends to disentangle themselves or, at least, to be more aware of what they could be getting into. Thanks. Best regards
Subject: Your Amway story (part 3) Mon, 23 Feb 1998 Hello, Thanks for including your experiences with Amway... Just a few hours ago I had a meeting with a young man, who is a "direct distributor" for Britt World Services... he is trying to get me too sign up...sounds like alot of the jargon he told me tonight is "typical Amway talk". He also told me about ties between Amway and Britt World Services...What do you know about Britt?? I am on the fringe of making a decision, please e-mail me if you know anything about Britt World Services (or links to web pages about them). Thanks again for posting up the truth about Amway - it is a valuable resource... Was Considering Becoming A Direct Distributor, ***** ;)
Subject: Your page Tue, 24 Feb 1998 I joined Streamline about a month ago and they have helped me so far. I do worry though about whether or not all the effort is going to be woth it in the end. There must be 'good' ways of making money on the net - any tips/hints/advice/suggestions??
Subject: Your Amway page...
Tue, 24 Feb 1998
Great job!!
Excellent mix of hard truth and humour, really enjoyed it.
You see, I can relate fully to your opinions and experiance as I just
happen to have a "Scamway" fish for a direct supervisor.
Personally, I feel she a pressuring me to leave my sales job so she may
bring on some other "Scamway" flunkies....maybe THIS is how they all
make money!
So far, in just 4 months, she has hired 2 of her glazed over croonies
and provided them with decently salaried positions.
My question to is, are you aware of a "master directory" of "Scamway"
reps?? I'm very interested.
Any feedback is welcome. Again, nice job on the site!
Thanks
Subject: Re: Your Amway page...
Tue, 24 Feb 1998
> My question to is, are you aware of a "master directory" of "Scamway"
> reps?? I'm very interested.
>
Don't bother looking. There is none. In fact there is a very great
deal of distributor-related information that you will not be able to
find anywhere. There is no record of exactly how many distributors
there are, how many are at a specific PV or pin level, plenty of little
details like that. Believe me, I've looked. The best information
you'll find are vague number that change every year like "Over three
million distributors world wide" etc.
Part of the reason is that it's rough for them to keep tabs on all this
information. There are about a hundred thousand distributors who join
every year but half of them quit or cancel. That's hard to keep records
of.
But the other thing is that I suspect they don't want it to be known.
Experience tells me they don't like people doing math and statistics on
their distributors. And with good reason: their odds stink.
Subject: Need help with an article re MLM Tue, 24 Feb 1998 I'm writing a piece for National Business Employment Weekly. (I'm a freelance but this is an assignment; I've done about 25 pieces for NBEW.) May I (1) use the info on your Amway page, and (2) talk with you by phone (my quarter) over the next couple of weeks?
I accepted, but due to timing problems, we never got in touch. There is, however, one entertaining thing she said in a later letter:
It's funny but Amway, Excel, Nu Skin, etc. are stonewalling me. When I tell them I'm likely to come up with a negative article they call me back, but they always have some wild excuse like (I am not making this up) everyone being in South Africa. Have you any take on that?
Subject: Finished your Amway story... Tue, 24 Feb 1998 Hi I read your story. It was very revealing, good job!
Subject: Your Amway page... Wed, 25 Feb 1998 Thank you for spreading the word across the World Wide Web regarding Amway and their "illusion of limitless wealth". I was approached by a charasmatic ex-Veterinarian and his wife at a hotel in Toronto who had overheard that I was involved in international business. I was lead to believe, without a mention of the "A" word, that he and his wife were involved in International Distribution and they thought that my background might fit in with their international business dealings. To make a long story short, on my next trip up to Toronto, I was asked to join them at a "business meeting" with their associates. It was an absolute joke. The featured speaker spoke in a language of dreams and dangling carrots all revolving around a profit system that guaranteed 6-figure income. Throughout his talk, he kept referring to Network 21 and only within the last 5 minutes of his talk did the "A" word come up. In short, I felt that I had been deceived by the ex-Doctor and I had never seen such smoke and mirrors finanacial logoc in my life. I politely said no thank you and lost the card of the Doctor and his associates. A dog won't eat rotten food, and being a Vet, the doctor should have known that I could smell something that wasn't right. Thanks again for your expose. I will attach your web site to my emails and help to do a reverse-Network to prevent young and hopeful couples from falling into the tangled web of Amway.
Subject: Your Amway story (part 2) Wed, 25 Feb 1998 In the words of Doug Weed, former adviser to Bush and Reagan, "Your group may be a cult, but not mine. In a cult people do what they are told; my group is a bunch of independent jackasses."
Subject: Finished your Amway story...
Wed, 25 Feb 1998
Thanks for the story!! I was recently approached by someone who
frequents the restaurant I manage. He had called me at work one day and
started spewing some story about a company: Britt Worldwide, Ltd. who
were looking to expand their distribution "centers" in the San Francisco
Bay area. The man then went on to state that his job was to seek out
six outstanding individuals to start up distribution. My response was
that I was in the restaurant industry with a degree in Hospitality
Management, I haven't the slightest clue about distribution. His
response was that it was not as difficult as it sounded and would I be
willing to meet him for coffee the next week. I agreed only to be
polite and because I had seen him in the restaurant quite frequently,
why not return the favor.
So we meet over coffee and his presentation was a mish-mash of Ray
Kroc, Franchises, and 5-10 hour work weeks, very vague and very
pyramid-like. So as soon as I got home I logged on to the internet and
eventually came to your site. Needless to say I read the whole thing
and many other links associated with your site. Due to your efforts and
others like you I can learn the truth before it is too late!! Thanks
again!!
Subject: Amway WEB site Wed, 25 Feb 1998 I recently saw your site on the internet. I just put together my own Amway site ww.awod.com/gallery/rwav/slarsen/amway.html. You may want to check it out and possibly link it to yours. Send me any comments you might have, or any run-ins you may of had with Amway legal over your WEB page. If you had any experience with them, and you view my site, please let me know if anything there will push their hot button. Thanks for your help,
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