Subject: Why am I in Amway? Tue, 16 Feb 1999 RGlasser, I haven't read all of your story yet, but I will as soon as I finish typing this e.mail. To this point I've read to the part about listening to Amway tapes all the time. I did to initially because I too was new. I'm not new anymore and just like those who have been in for a while, I now understand that Amway is just like any other business. As much as we say we love people (oh, and we do because it's part of the deal), the bottom line is cash. On a recent tape from J. Sestina, he recounted what his sponsor told him, "Even if I didn't make another friend in this business, I'd still do it for the money." Sadly in our business, too many people, even those who have been in for years still fail to understand that Amway is a business. It is a business like every other business in that it takes time and money to develop a customer base, it takes time and money to develop new distributors, and it takes time before the business returns a profit to you. Business is about profit. You don't make a profit from day one. It takes time--months, sometimes years-- to reach the point where income exceeds expenses. It is when you reach this point that you declare a profit. I like what Sestina said <-- he's a smart guy. He said "I didn't show a profit until I reached Emerald." This doesn't mean he wasn't making money. This means he ran and runs his Amway business like I do mine. He records all his expenses and takes advantage of every tax deduction he can find to minimize the amount of cash the IRS gets. If more people in and out of Amway understood this, then they'd understand that Amway is the best BUSINESS opportunity in the world. It's business. Period. It's not a lovefest, even though we have a "lovey-dovey" way of building cohesiveness in our teams. It's not about tapes. Directs get money on tapes because by the time you're a Direct, you have to handle and distribute a large inventory of tapes. <-- This work takes time, therefore Directs get paid for their time. I'm not yet a direct, but I can tell ya right now that as many tapes as I see my upline direct having to sort and coordinate the distribution of, you better believe that I'll be claiming my piece of that money. Some people say the tapes are mind control. Well anybody with a feeble enough mind to get hooked on something as substanceless as words I don't need in my group. The tapes are to remind you that business is a rough and tumble thing in which things aren't always going to go your way = nos, people laughing, dummies who think you're in a cult. (Timeout: I welcome any cult in which I can make money in. Know any? Let me know, please. I am an engineering major, but despite the books and the degree, my bottom line is cash. I'll take it any way I can find be it Amway or whatever, as long as it is legit and legal. If anybody has a problem with that, then that's their problem not mine. My goal is to retire by age 30 with huge cash in the bank. I'm working like a dog to make it happen. It is happening. It will happen. And if you know any way I can add to my bank balance, please let me know. Because with me money talks and bullshit walks. <-- Betcha didn't think Amway types cussed. Well you've never met the dude that hides behind this Amway mask. :-)) But anyway, I'm all typed out for now so I'll get back to your story. But as I leave, I leave you this to think on: Amway is business. Period. If you're in it thinking it's about friends then you can kiss your ass and your bank balance goodbye. It's about money. Period. Is it a pyramid? Well you can say yes or you can say no. I say both. But as we say with the McDonald's analogy, Ole McD wouldn't have billions and billions served if they only had one restaurant. They franchised out 19000 of them and that's how they became the biggest fast food chain in world. 'When you or anyone else buys into Amway, you're buying into the cheapest startup cost franchise in the world. Thousands of products to use and sell <-- and to the dummies that don't sell, boy ain't you stupid. Ex. every Water Treatment System I sell brings me $115. It takes 30 - 45 minutes to sell one if you've taken the few minutes it requires to assess the client and his/her needs and determine if they have enough cash to buy one. Now who do you know that will turn down $115 in about the time it takes to watch a sitcom? I don't. <-- Yes I do watch TV as most of my crew does, but we are also greedy bastards that know that TV don't pay diddly. Boy, I could go on and on but I'm pooped. Time to finish reading your sob story about how you didn't make money in Amway. I always find these amusing as I listen to AMVOX and count how much $$$$$$ I just made from another good day of selling. Mail you later dude, Subject: Me Again Tue, 16 Feb 1999 Hey Russ, I just finished reading your story. Good one. Sounds like you were almost hooked by some distributors who didn't yet know how and when to drop the smoke with their new recruits and get down to business so to speak. On their behalf, I apologize. Like I said in my first e.mail, even in the Amway business, you find people, lots of em, who don't understand that we're about business baby. As a friend of mine likes to say, "Your love will give me thrills, but it won't pay the bills." That statement is so very true in this business. It's about business, and it's about making the long green <-- pardon my slang. How? To answer, let me educate you about the Amway business. Step #1: We find people who are looking for more money, more time, or are considering a career change or starting a business. #2: We extend a business opportunity (And yes if you were a business owner and understood business--the need to be highly diversified and not be dependent on one product or service, the tremendous advantage it is to not have huge overhead costs (buildings, inventory, lazyass employees (employees you see are paid as part of the cost of business) who you have to ride all the time and are always late or sick <-- Please), the strength it is to offer a 100% money back guarantee, and the value of personalized service Mr. Glasser, then you'd understand that an Amway business is indeed the "best business opportunity in the world" for anybody who wants to do their own thing and not have to listen to some blowhard boss or manager or senior partner or whatever the blowhard might be titled as. #3 We show them the business plan. (SOME WILL understand the McD or Sam's analogy and understand that what we're doing by sponsoring and what they'd be doing by sponsoring is opening up a new store or outlet and thereby increasing the size of their business; SOME WON'T, and I know you've heard this one before, SO WHAT? -- Indeed, there are plenty of people in the world who need some money, who'd rather not have to report to or take abuse from blowhards, and would like to have something with 40 years of proven success to cushion their fall should they get one of the pink slips that are positively flying around these days. (If you haven't got one yet Mr. Engineer, trust me with the way the business world is these days, you will at least a few times before they throw dirt on your pine box.) #4 We sign em up = they buy a kit = sign up on MCI <-- great service, 100 pv/bv = easy money, and even if they decide they don't like it later, who cares, I still and so does the new person, get 100 pv/bv in my till baby. #5 We start teaching them the products, how to use and order them <-- A few things about the products: no, they're not all the best, but I can assure that many including SA8 are rock solid value purchases if you measure them out and study the numbers as I do with all my guys. #6 We start sales training. <-- Yes you gotta sell, and if you don't like selling then that's your loss. -- Check what I said about the Water Treatment System in my first email. Great money and pv/bv there, and the same goes for the cosmetics and vitamins. But on sales, if you live in an apartment complex like I do, you'd make a killin' Set a table, do free samples and product demos, and then watch your neighbors gather like flies. I love it! #7 We make a list of people the newbie knows. Yes, everybody. We already know that not everybody is going to shine to this thing, but some might, and some will also become customers of yours. In retailing you see, customers not only = cash, they also = referrals = more customers = more business for you = more money. #8 We teach em how to talk to and meet people who are also open to business opportunities or are flat out looking for ways to make straight up legit money as opposed to kissing Mr. Bossman's ass for a raise. #9 The cycle repeats itself and every month you go to the bank with a check that increases in size every month. That plain and simple is how the Amway business works. Love or no love, friends or no friends, I'm in it and I'm doing it, and will continue to do it for the money. Why? Because I like money, I like lots of money, and I like the idea of retiring with long green coming in by age 30. If you don't, then that's your problem. Oh, and last thing, you're right about the tapes. They're mostly hoopla, but they're hoopla with a purpose. The purpose is to get people to understand that #1as an employee you'll only make as much as your boss is gonna give ya, #2 If you want or need more money and/or time, then starting your own business is what to do, not find another job, and #3 condition people to remember why they're in the business despite all the nos and laughter they might get from whatever jobbrainwashed persons they might encounter. Yes I admit it, directs and above get paid for handling tapes, but there is a reason for that: directs and above have to inventory and distribution a sasload of tapes, directs and above do a lot of driving or flying to show plans for downline = gas money spent or airline tickets= go broke unless more money is coming in. So you see, the money on tapes is to ease the financial burden on the directs of running their growing businesses. Sadly too many people who don't understand this go and shout tape money fraud on the internet. Oh well, in business you can't make everybody happy, especially when they're too busy listening to people who although they might think they understand business, they actually don't know thing one about business. On the functions, opens, seminars, dream nite, go diamond, etc., yes they are pep rallies, but more than that. In business (ask your college professor, dad, or any lawyer or engineer, or any professional) continuing education is part of the deal. Functions and rallies are not, as you might think, just for having a good time and having more money sucked out of your wallet. Rather functions are where you learn from paid speakers, some Amwayers and some not, how to improve your business. True, you'll discover that not all of them are worth the money, but hey you never know until you get there and besides, I enjoy a road trip every once in a while. Even when I don't get my money's worth of info, I still get to see a city or part of the country that I might not have taken the time to see otherwise. I once read something on the Internet from a guy who was backstage and saw speakers get paid with suitcases full of cash. I don't know how accurate or not that is, but regardless I say hooray. If and when I become improtant enought in the Amway world to be invited to speak at a function or rally, you better believe I'll be wanting to be paid to leave my kids and home behind to fly halfway across the country at my expense to spend a day or two talking under hot lights on a stage to a roomful of people I don't know. I might do it for free once or twice, but not much more than that. That said, how're you gonna have a rally or seminar if no speakers wanna come? Answer, you pay em to come. How you gonna pay em. Answer, you charge for the rally. How you gonna get people to come and hear from a successful person, what they did to become successful, well you tell em that that's why you're going and why they ought to go to the rally. What happens after you tell 'em, well that's on them. As we say, some will, some won't, so what. I for one for going to large rallies and seminars, have had the opportunity to meet some of the large millionaire names in Amway and pick their brains directly on the things they did to get where they are. You see, tapes I've discovered don't tell you everything. It helps tremendously when you can get info from the source. And when the source is a millionaire, well, #1how many of them are you gonna meet in your lifetime, and #2 how many of them that you do meet will tell you what they did to get to where they're at. I live in Dallas, and I once almost walked right into Ross Perot as he was exiting an elevator. #1 Ross Perot don't talk to nobody unless they're bigshots and/or he's being paid to talk. And #more important2, he has a big bruiser bodyguard who don't like people wasting Mr. Perot's time. At an Amway function, the millionaires don't have bodyguards and they do spend time with ya. You can even take pictures. I like that. And I love this business. And like Bill Britt says, "if somebody don't like it, they can take a flying leap!" That's it, that's all, I'm out,
All I can say is, God created paragraph breaks for a reason. Learn to love them.
Subject: YourAmwaystory(part3) Wed, 17 Feb 1999 i must compliment you on your writing style it could not have been better put my husband was recently approached by a "friend" and attended his first motivational seminar he said you would have thought God himself was speaking i unfortunately missed this blessed event as i had to work this day DAMN!!! i was invited of course "Ernie" insists that i become part of this opprtunity of a lifetime my husband however tries to shield me from the lunatic fringe of our society after researching the big A word his friend has warned him that he will be labelled a "DREAM STEALER" incidentally my husband was the only person at the seminar wearing jeans and hiking boots how can anyone take him seriously ? thank you for taking the time for sharing your experience as we too were saying what harm could there be? as the saying goes we have nothing to fear but fear itself------and AMWAY!!!
Subject: AmWay is the Spawn of "Satan" Thu, 18 Feb 1999 AmWay is a pyramid scheme in my opinion. I need to hang up garlic around my house to keep these AmWay undead zombies away from my home. I grew up in Europe and served my conscripted military service in a foreign air force, where I learned the subtle crafts of intelligence gathering and deception. When I arrived in U.S. I was ambushed by AmWay salespeople masquerading as my friend. I think they thought I was an easy target for their fast-talking high-power presentations. Perhaps they did not understand it is my english that is a little lacking not my thought process. Their tactics are deceptive, and unethical, as the disinformation tactics we were taught in the military service. I politely asked the two heavily suited inviduals to leave my house, as my temper began to be kindled. AmWay is evil and I will have nothing to do with their people.
Subject: YourAmwaystory(part3) Thu, 18 Feb 1999 i just finished reading you story and i was really fascinaed and intrigued by it. you see, i was with a company called primerica financial services for about 2 1/2 years and ill have to tell you, although amway and primerica market different products, the cult-like business tactics between the two are frighteningly similar! i had for the past, maybe 4 or 5 months not been involved with them, but not because of getting your information off of the web, but rather because in the whole time i had been involved, the income i generated there was far less than the expense i put into it. you wouldn"t believe how much of what i went through almost mirrors what you almost got involved in. i dont know if you have ever heard of primerica before, but as i was reading your story and a few others i had checked out, i just kept getting this sinking feeling in my stomach. you know, thinking to myself that i had been through exactly what you and others were describing, i mean it is really uncanny! the feeling of everybody here loves you and cares about you, and the upline that you put on a pedestal, because they seem to know everything about the business, and the dreams you have for your family that they prey upon, man i went through all of that, and just up until a couple of nights ago, until i started reading your story, i thought that maybe i did fail and was a loser, but know i know better. as a matter of fact, about a year or so ago, while i was still really into the primerica business, a guy aproached me as i was sitting on my front porch one evening , asking about the house that was for rent right beside mine. after a few moments of conversation, he told me about his business, which was, you guessed it, amway! well i really had no intention of doing it, since i was doing my primerica business, or shall i say, struggling with it. but i did agree to go to one of his meetings, more or less, just to give him a reason to throw my companys sales pitch at him as well. but to make a long story short, i wound up making an excuse up to not go, and after reading your story, i think back and i am so glad i didn't. because i may have, seeing that primerica was just not going anywhere for me, decided to give it a try, and who knows what kind of rut i would be in now! but primerica made me feel exactly the way they made you feel, the sense of exhiliration attending that first meeting, and seeing how rich you could get, and going to those occasional, as we called them, builders schools, which would be equivalent to your big company meetings, with the music or band, the awards, the testimonials from the leaders that were high up in the hierarchy, the weekend long sleep deprivation, and constant driling of recruit, recruit,recruit, recruiting is the lifeblood of the company! endless note taking, and the fact that i was paying for the tickets to attend, among having to get an insurance license to even do the business, which cost me roughly 200 dollars that i didn't have at the time. and where you are told not to mention amway to a new prospect until a specific time, we are told, or better yet, our presentation book does not mention the word life insurance until near the end of the presentation, and thats all we can make money from statring out, until we become securities licensed, which is another 5 to 6 hundred dollars! so i know what you almost went through, and others that didn't back away as soon as you did have gone or are going through. in closing, i want to really thank you for posting this web page, because after reading it, i feel better about myself and not so much a failure anymore just because i decided to quit the business. im only 25 years old, but had it not been for your story, i may have decded to get involved with them again, and who knows how long i would have struggled with it, not making hardly any money! so "phil" could not have been any more wrong when he said your site would fail. you really opened my eyes to the manipulation that takes place within these so-called "business oppurtunities". thank you again. p.s. please feel free to e-mail me with any respone to my letter, sorry it was so long, but i got on a roll! ha! ha!
Subject: regarding your web site Sat, 20 Feb 1999 I just came across your web site and decided to read your experience. I'm sorry that it was a bad one. Since you did a lot of "research" what follows are things that you probably already know. Distributors are independent business owners. They are not employees and as such, Amway does not have control over their actions. (seems weird, but I work at a company that also has independent reps) There are numerous lines of sponsorship and at least 20-30 different systems. All with different approaches to the business. Just like there are different franchise systems, these systems vary greatly. The reason that Amway cannot and does not release income/profits for its distributors is that they do not have this information. The only information that they have is the gross dollars paid to Direct Distributors and above since the DD pay out of their rebate check the monies owed to their personally sponsored distributors (Again, my company is the same is this respect. We do not know how much they pay the reps who work for them) I am not making an excuse for your experience. I believe that I would have had a similar reaction to the same situation. I wish you much success in the software industry. Living in Austin and having many friends in that industry (Dell, Microsoft, Apple, Origin, Pervasive, etc.) I understand your interest in a very exciting and growing field. For the record, I do make money from Amway. Sincerely, ***** P.S. I find it ironic that Proctor and Gables lawsuit against Amway (now dropped by the court) turned up the fact that they had Sidney Schwarz (of the main Anti-Amway website) listed as a paid consultant. Funny how things happen. Subject: Re: regarding your web site Sat, 20 Feb 1999 That was never a secret, as far as I know. Sidney Schwartz had his web site up for two years before P&G asked him to consult for them as a subject expert. They paid for his time; they did not "fund" his web site (the cost of which is negligible, as I should know). In what sense did you find this ironic? Subject: Re: regarding your web site Sun, 21 Feb 1999 As a matter of fact it seems to have been a secret. Let's just say that I find it interesting that a competitor of Amway would use Mr. Schwartz as a "subject expert." What benefit would P&G derive from his "experience" ? Does he have some special marketing or chemistry skills that P&G could use to grow their business? It seems like they (P&G) were just trying to derail a growing competitor. I find it ironic in the sense that Amway did not know of the P&G/Schwartz relationship until P&G filed the lawsuit in Utah (I believe) after Amway had cooperated with P&G. The relationship came during the discovery process of the lawsuit. Do you find it at all relevant that the judge ordered P&G to pay Amway money because they (P&G) destroyed documents requested by the courts?? As for P&G funding his site, I would guess neither you or me is actually privy to what really happened between P&G and Mr. Schwartz.
I am. By the way, further treatment of the "Sidney Schwartz is a secret pawn of Procter & Gamble" rumor can be found on the Frequently Asked Questions page.
Subject: Amway's New Scam. Sat, 20 Feb 1999 Hey Russell, I was searching the Internet for some info on a new Amway scam when I ran across your page. I was unable to find anything about it and was hoping you might know something, or point me in the right direction it. Apparently Amway is about to take control of all shopping on the Internet. How they plan to do this with a Multi-Level scheme is beyond my imagination, but I am going to a meeting with a Big Cheese this Friday to get the pitch. Don't worry I went through your recent experience over 20 years ago. I have never joined, but I have lost several friends over the years. I like to keep track of what they are up to in case I am able to catch anyone before the brainwashing has set in. Let me know if you know of anything on this.
Subject: Finished your Amway story... Sun, 21 Feb 1999 I just read the entire story in one sitting, you helped convince me to NOT GET INVOLVED WITH AMWAY... THANKS there seems to be a slight twist to the story now..considering my recent encounter call me if your interested...
Subject: thanks Mon, 22 Feb 1999 One of my best friends has approached me on "this new plan" for years and i have been able to keep them away, but finally they went too far today. I had to say no 100 times and finally had to yell "I dont want anything to do with your god damned Amway."...then added... did i go over board with my responce. A cult, that is what i told them... but the sad part is that i will probably loose a good friend over this. Your story is close to home, a well written piece. How much did P&G pay you to wight it? Ha!
50 cents and some expired McDonald's Monopoly sweepstakes. OOPS! I just gave away my secret!
Subject: Finished your Amway story... Tue, 23 Feb 1999 Russell, You piece of crap anti amway .... Just kidding. I have recently had the pitch solicited at my doorstep and can relate from just the few experiences I have had. Your web page is about the 5th document I have come across that shows the other side of Amway. I am curious to see what kind of response I will get from my local distributors when I am not fully cooperative. All these testimonials (and court cases) seem to present the same claims.. Well, you know the old saying "if it is too good to be true, it probably is" - I guess that applies once again. Your page is well written and quite humorous - I applaud your efforts.
Subject: Finished your Amway story... Fri, 26 Feb 1999 Dear Russell You homepage and the 25 or so others that I've visited have just saved me from becoming a part of the Amway cult. Just tonight I was all set to sign up and become and "Independent Business Owner" but because I had a few small doubts I decided to search the net looking for someone or something to stop me. Thank god I looked through a hundred and fifty hits on HotBot till I came across pages like yours. I believe I got to your homepage from "Amway: The Untold Story" which I'm sure you have heard of. I have to tell ya that they are still blowing this spunk out of every hole. I got my first tape from a fellow who came into my place of employ and asked me if "I wanted a better future?" and seeings how I do in fact want a better future I said "sure." So there I was in. After looking at their fancy web page, www.countdown9199.com and listening to the tape I wanted to know more. Granted I had heard of Amway and even have a co-worker who is in the system and it was her that told me "Amway's changed". I contacted my aunt who had tried Amway in the early 80's and asked her what she thought of it and even though she didn't like the company or what they do she still couldn't help but half assedly pitch the business to me. So I thought like you, what have I got to lose. $160 isn't going to break me. That's where you and sites like yours come in. I decided to see if there were any "hidden costs" to this and so I turned to the best place for the truth, the internet. THANK GOD. When I confronted my "sponsor" with the information on how you'll lose a $1000 or more in your first one to three years of selling the company he came back with, "Uh huh" and I went on with, "Consumer Reports says the products Amway sells, their CORE products, are of substandard quality." he came back with "Uh huh" and so I offered, "How many of these tapes and booklets and such am I going to have to buy?" to this he replied, "Oh I'll lend you the tapes, the first ten or so, there's never a need to buy any of the tapes but you can't succeed unless you do." and I said, "Well I don't know how the tapes sell dish soap and fabric softener." and he says, "We don't sell dish soap and fabric stuff, we sell the business." "Well then who buys the products?" "You buy them now just at Wal-Mart of the grocery store. When you become a IBO you'll have to buy all you items through Amway." "But what if I don't like the products?" "That doesn't really matter now does it?" "Well sure, why should I pay for something I don't like?" "You'll buy them, use them and love them." At this point I bring up my info from the internet on my computer in the living room and he starts going nuts! Mean while my wife and his wife are in the kitchen talking over numbers and how nothing they sell is any cheaper than we can get at Wal-Mart or Sam's club and his wife is trying to convince mine that the 6% refund makes up for that. My wife's an accountant by the way and started shooting out numbers and figures that even my computer couldn't keep up with so I knew she was in good hands. I turn to "Amway: The Untold Story" and "Bob" starts going banana's. "You can't believe those loser!" "But they are not the only sight." "I don't care, they are all faithless losers." "But Bob there's so many." "Non of them know the truth." So I bring up some testimonials from past Amway IBO's and start reading this stuff to him. "This lady says she worked for 5 years and had a net loss of $5000 over those five years." "She's a loser and probably spent all her money on drugs or something." "But this guy here had to get a restraining order to keep those upline away from him." "Loser, idiot" So this wasn't going anywhere. So I turn the monitor off and tell him I don't think this is for me. "Well if you don't like it after you come to a couple of meetings and listen to a few more tapes we'll be happy to give you back your money." So here was a new twist, if I had seen this in writing I might have done differently but in nothing that he'd shown me so far had there been anything about a "Money back guarantee" so I told him to "Put it in writing Bob." Well I might as well asked for his daughters head on a spike. "Listen to me. Either you are going to take this chance and we'll be good friends and help each other out in making lots of money or you're going to pass on it and have wasted my time and money for the past week." No there it was. Either I was going to be the winner or the loser and either way I'm going to be an idiot. So I said, "Bob, if you were going to buy a car and the sales man said to you 'Bob buy this car' and you turned around and found 30,000 people standing behind you saying 'Bob don't buy the car' who are you going to listen to?" "I'd listen to myself." he said so smugly that I almost puked, "Well then I shall listen to myself and thank you for your time and let me get the door for you." And with that I turned down the business and basically its all thanks to you and the brave few who have had the guts to speak the truth.
Subject: Your Amway story (part 1) Thu, 25 Feb 1999 Hi Thank you very much for the info on you rsite i am also a CSC major and i am was going through all the same things you were.
Subject: Your Amway page... Thu, 25 Feb 1999 Boy, you must be enjoying yourself. I am sure you must know that even with all your effort people do not generally accept this type of "exposing", it it too obvious an attack from a disgruntled x distributor or someone that just did not invest the time necessary or simply did not "want" to do the business for whatever reason. Which is quite acceptable, it is not for everyone. However, I will tell you that Amway is not a good spectator sport, I before considering getting involved watched two of my friends go Emerald and then EDC, far surpassing my income as a business owner. After meeting hundreds of Amway distributors I can say that I have never me more "real" people than in this business, people I enjoy spending time with even if they or I never succeed in it. They are great friends. The money has never been the primary reason I go involved. The friends and relationships we have developed have been worth it. And as for the money spend voluntarily on the tools, have made me a more positive and productive person and again if I never do anything with the business it was a small price to pay, and I have become a better person and a more caring individual, far worth the price of "admission" so to speak. You certainly have the right to spread this information across the web, how many futures are you stealing in the process, the business DOES work but it ISNT'T for everybody, nothing is. Some people like bankruptcy and divorce, instead of hope and prosperity. I will take the latter, I have already experienced the other. And when entering this business my second marriage was on the brink, but now since we are building the business and doing something in common it has greatly improved and continuing to improve. This is what you do not mention. The business has positive affects for many, many people. You can always find the negative in something. But you see, I KNOW the truth I stood by and was like you for many years until too many people became successful and had many great friends that they made in this business to show for it. This is priceless, if we didn't make money in this business we would still WANT to be involved for the relationships with people and the positive influence it has had on our lives. And we have never been in this to make money off anyone only to help them achieve their goals that they will never achieve through their job or any other means we have been taught. I have been there done that and that cost me far more than some tools. Tell the other stories, and I hope maybe someday you will see the other side yourself, but some people only can see the negative side of things. Just thought I would share that with you, I hope you prosper in a positive manner and share things than help people and not hurt.
Subject: My reply to your Amway page Fri, 26 Feb 1999 Hi, My uncle just last night tried to get my sister, brother and I to join Amway... Unfortunately, I think that my brother has bought into it, but I don't think that for a second I was buying any of it. The fact that he never mentioned where the money was coming from interested me... I think I'm going to print your story and give it to my brother, it might do him good! Something interesting to note, in your story "Phil" suggested that the internet would get you no where, but it seems that the internet is one of Amway's new marketing strategy! I just thought that was funny.
Subject: What are the plans for your site... Sat, 27 Feb 1999 Hi Russell, It's me Jason, author of the "Insider's Perspective" Anti-Amway web site. I was wondering what's going on with your web site. I've been trying to get into it for the last couple of days. Have you taken it down permanently? If you have, would you be willing to allow me to post your site on my site? I would really like to preserve it for others. I have always enjoyed your wit and humor in your dealings with distributors. If you have a few moments, I'd like to hear from you.
Jason, I'm apologizing now for never getting back to you. All I can say is, I guess I was in total "non-Amway" mode at the time that you wrote this, and not paying attention to my mail.
Subject: YourAmwaystory(part2) Sun, 28 Feb 1999 Dude, you need to get a grip. Everyone that is a success in big business hopefully will make millions, isn't business about making money??? Just an observation from a neutral source.....
Subject: Amway Web Scam Tue, 02 Mar 1999 Russell, I sent you a message last week about the new Amway scam. They are putting together a virtual mall. It will be quixtar.com. It appears that they are flooding the Internet with propaganda. Whenever I search for info on quixtar I get nothing but promotional articles by Amway people. You appear to be much more competent with the internet than I am. I think you could do many people a great service by investigating this and spreading the word. Subject: Re: Amway Web Scam Thu, 25 Mar 1999 That's all there is, as far as I know. Quixtar is pretty much a new thing, it will be going online in September, and naturally there's nothing to criticize about it yet except that it is pretty obviously Amway. This being the case, many people will buy overpriced products believing they will make a fortune. This will further enrich the corporation. To say anything beyond that would be mere speculation. Sorry I took so long to get back to you. Subject: Thanks! Fri, 26 Mar 1999 Russell, Thanks for your response to my Amway Web Scam message. I think it was reasonably prompt considering how much e-mail you must get. I am a little depressed tonight as I have just returned from meeting with my friend who courted me on this deal. He is a very honorable, but somewhat naive physician from India. I am certain he has been unaware just how unethical and immoral this Amway scam really is. I am quite knowledgeable in Economics and Marketing and was able to slowly over the course of 2 hours counter all his regurgitated propaganda and explain just what is really going on. Although he did not concede defeat, he was visably shaken and was reduced to impassionatley mouthing the mantras as I was leaving. Those filthy blood-sucking bastards with Amway forced me to drive a stake through this mans heart to try to save him. I feel like shit. Good luck and keep up the fight.
Subject: Finished your Amway story... Tue, 2 Mar 1999 Keep up the page. They need to know. Thank you.
Subject: amway Thu, 4 Mar 1999 Russell, Why have you devoted so much of your time to this Amway issue? Your arguments carry the same weight of coercion as do Amway's. I have seen similar reactions to the military. I joined the military to find out for myself. In the end, I learned that the experience is what you make of it.
Subject: YourAmwaystory(part1) Thu, 4 Mar 1999 I'm glad that I read your web page about amway. I have personal friend that is trying to get me in the business, and I have been very skeptical about the entire operation. Thanks for your info. I won't be joining amway anyrime soon.
Subject: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 Dear Russel, You're looking at the business as a consumer(that is what I did the first time) take another look.(as an entrepreneur) Trust me even if you don't know me, I missed out all those years because I listened to my friends, don't make the same mistake. Today I have solid business in 4 countries, I myself cannot believe I'm making monthly income in 4 different currencies, It's incredible considering where I've come from. It's up to you , but I did it and I don't regret it. Fact:Microsoft is responsible for 3300 millionaires world wide Fact:Amway is responsible for 2200 milionaires worldwide What easier a highschool drop out like myself working for microsoft or building an amway business? > Fact:Microsoft is responsible for 3300 millionaires world wide Counter-fact: Microsoft has roughly 22,000 employees world-wide. Employee-to-millionaire rate: 15% > Fact:Amway is responsible for 2200 milionaires worldwide Counter-fact: Amway has about 3 million distributors world-wide, at least according to common distributor bragging. Ditributor to millionaire rate: 0.073%. Comparison of Microsoft to Amway rates of millionaire-hood: 204:1. Of coure this is assuming that 2200 is the correct number, which is far greater than any figure I've heard. > What easier a highschool drop out like myself working for microsoft or > building an amway business? (Tick, tock, tick, tock) (Contestant scribbles frantically on his notepad.) I've got it, Alex!! "What is Microsoft?" Mon, 15 Mar 1999 There are currently 2500 (approx) Diamonds in the amway business, of which I have personally met at least 1000 on a personal level. As for microsoft it's not there employees that are rich (not all of them anyway) but the 3300 millionaires created by microsoft are people who are affiliated with them.
Subject: *laugh* Thu, 4 Mar 1999 I had a similar experience with a non-Amway group. I was nearly recruited through a newspaper article claiming to be seeking "managers" for some local district offices, and realized only after the second "pump-you-up" meeting that no legitimate company would spend so much time trying to prove it was a legitimate company. Best of luck. :)
Subject: Finished your Amway story... Thu, 04 Mar 1999 Great story. A (once) friend of mine tried to pitch me when I started grad school around 1994. He had just joined then--but was going to be able to retire in 2 years. Five years later, I'm at a job I love and he's still shilling--as well as prformign his day job. I never hear from him. He and his wife, are, evidently, still tight in the "business." Everythign about it is creepy--the faux enthusiastic Amway Smile is the true face of evil.
Subject: Your Amway story (part 2) Thu, 4 Mar 1999 I have had my own experience with Amway and like yourself, I was too smart to get involved with them. My real estate agent called me up and invited me to an "investment" meeting. This meeting was a 35 minute drive away and at 8:30PM. I did not want to go but I thought it would be a good to get some investment ideas, so against my better judgment, I talked my husband into going with me. We got there and after 45 minutes, they had not mentioned the Amway name, but it was apparent that is what it was. Needless to say, we left right after the meeting and to this day, I have not spoken to that real estate agent. Up to that point, I had felt he was a friend, but I knew I could not trust him after that. He knew that I would not come if I had known what the meeting was about. Amway does not help its reputation by this aura of secrecy. I can imagine you get hundreds of e-mails from people with stories just like this one, but I wanted to add my two cents worth.
Subject: your Amway story... great Thu, 04 Mar 1999 I haven't finished your Amway story, but have jumped around and read several bits of it. Nice work -- you write clearly and directly -- while you certainly have a strong point of view, you are just as obviously working hard to present all the facts. I got to your page from a link in Salon's item "Amway joins the online multilevel marketing melee" -- http://www.salonmagazine.com/21st/log/ My sister and her husband were in Amway for a little while, and exhausted themselves going to some of these motivational meetings -- though never had such a horrific experience as Ginny describes. Now they're in Watkins... more benign, I think. (And I enjoy the Watkins spices that she gives me at Christmas.) Well, I've spent *entirely* too much time enjoying your site (love your quotes) when I should be writing new material for one of my website clients ... but I just had to tell you that you write very well and that I wish you the best. If you are at all interested in jobs in Iowa or the midwest, let me know... I've got a few contacts. Subject: Ginny's Amway story -- wow, good job Thu, 04 Mar 1999 Ginny, Your story is awful/wonderful -- an awful experience, wonderfully well described. You really get across the deception and the motivation/manipulation. Subject: great pages Thu, 04 Mar 1999 Loved the pages. I agree that page 3 (or part 3?) is really chilling. But then again, I'm so argumentative, I would've stayed as long as you did. anyway, on the arguments page, you say, "I mean, it's not like you can even say that BOTH Smothers Brothers are involved." (in the "look at the big names who are involved with Amway" section) Amusing tidbit--no, Tommy Smothers (and I am old enough to have seen at least a few shows) is happily making wine in Napa Valley, CA. Honest. I walked into a wine-tasting place, saw the Smothers Brothers insignia, and was saying to my friends, "How can they do that? Don't the Smothers Brothers have to be involved?", turned around and there he was in the flesh. Not bad wine. He signed all our bottles for us. Nope, I don't think he's anywhere near ready to push Amway crap. He seemed rather content to be making and selling wine.
Subject: comment on wording of sentence Thu, 04 Mar 1999 Hi Russell, Fascinating page. I have only read the intro so far, but look forward to reading the rest. I had an Amway "demo" (they have another word for this but I forget) a few years back and the math really amazed me--how poor it is and how totally unrealistic. Anyway, this sentence doesn't make sense to me as written: "So what is evident is that if people have made millions of dollars from Amway, the money has come from a group that has collectively proves that others have LOST millions of dollars. " Perhaps you meant "So what is evident is that if people have made millions of dollars from Amway, the money has come from a group that has collectively LOST millions of dollars." Anyway, keep up the good work; I'm sure you get several icky emails a week,
Subject: Your Amway story (part 2) Thu, 04 Mar 1999 I've just become an amway dist. It seems that doom and gloom is what lies ahead.(according to these letters) I'm not so sure, I've looked into and participated in some events. but I do not let anyone pressure me or sell me anything I don't need or want. As for breaking the bank with tapes and videos and such - Try starting a traditional business Start up costs ie: Rent, employees ect. then we can talk break the bank - with start up business failing over 80%. Amway is undoubtibly a hard and uphill sales organization but as far as start up costs and money, is far less than traditional business, I know - you try and lose 20K in a failed business. Hard to recoup. Pricing is a little high, Why? I know exactly. Benefit the upline. of course. Profit in this country has become a dirty word. Haggle over price, get a deal, who suffers - the little guy, why? Profit margins drop. Fire the extra store clerk. Now you and I have to wait in a longer line at the supermarket. I know hokey example but think about it - I work for a major manufacturing company in NY. I see it all day long, Cheaper prices translate to lesser products, Period. So is amway so bad. I don't know. They sell products - Have profit built in - pass money upline - It seems to me in a pretty fair way to distribute earnings. And yes Amway profits as well. As far a cult mentality , My upline has been pretty stable - I aware of many different Organizations each one being a little different in how they operate (all Amway of course) I believe the mentality of the upline is the over driving factor in how the whole line functions. I seem to be in a pretty normal group- since our diamond is from North NJ - his attitude seems more on our level - I couldn't imagine a southern baptist as my diamond - since I don't subscribe to that mentality. In conclusion, I hope to hear back from you as I just started 3 mos. ago and I am always open to feedback. Regards
Subject: My reply to your Amway page Thu, 04 Mar 1999 I loved your page, but amazingly I am the only person I know who has NEVER been approached by AMWAY. I used to feel good about that but now I feel a little left out. Anyway I'm writing a story on Amway and MLMs and wanted to get in touch with some crazy old dreamstealers who live in Australia. would it be possible for you to pass on my email address to an Australians you might know or point me in the right direction to meet some people who've had similar expnces to you? I'd really appreciate any help you could give me. Your page was great. Best wishes
Subject: Finished your Amway story... Fri, 5 Mar 1999 your web page is great... i don't know how many people i've made copies for. And it has desuaded a lot of people. I was just duped into another Amway incounter... this makes 3. I'm giving them back there tapes with a copy of the more important points on the web page, hopefully they will see the light. Just for your FYI Amway is going online they will be at Quixtar.com... i'm pretty sure that's right. Thanks for the great page.
Subject: Your Amway story (part 2) Fri, 05 Mar 1999 three whole weeks gave you this impression? You're an impressionable boy..............
Subject: Finished your Amway story... Fri, 05 Mar 1999 Hi! I enjoyed reading your story. Just recently I was approached the same way you were by someone in Amway trying to recruit me. I live in Canada and it seems Amway's tactics know no boundaries. Maybe that's why they have a large presence in China and other third world countries. As you may have heard the Chinese government has severely restricted Amyway's marketing tactics. I think this is a good thing. I am all in favor of capitalism, but not the way Amway is promoting it. I think it going to give legitimit businesses a bad name in these countries. Anyways, my experience with Amyway has been much the same as yours. The only thing different has been the time, place and names of people involved. Also, my experience with some other MLM companies has been the same as Amway. They are all the same. The people involved need to get a reality check. They are living in a dream world. In my home town there are lots of people involved in some MLM program. Some are working as janitors and they keep saying that they are going to be rich some day. Five years later they are still doing the same job. 99% of these people will still be doing the same things as before they joined. On thing almost all MLM companies will not talk about is the extremely high turnover of recruits. May be it is because it could be a source of income to the 1% at the top.
Subject: your amway story (part 3) Fri, 5 Mar 1999 I am writing this letter in confidence. My motivation is that I have recently (3 months ago) become romantically involved with a member of Amway. I suppose writing this letter is a sort of catharsis for me, since I find myself in quite a dilemma. The dilemma is this: after a period of time getting to know this man and feeling like we had similar values and a great connection, I slowly start finding out just how involved he is with Amway and how Cult-like his devotion. He starts telling me (this happened yesterday) that since I like who he is - that I should know that everything he is in terms of personal development, is due to his involvement with Amway and the motivational tapes & books, etc. A few days ago he said that everything he reads is through Amway. That even his knowledge of relationships - as per the John Gray book "Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus" is because of Amway and the fact that they sent him this book. So, now you know the reason I visited your Web site. I wanted to find out more information about this organization. Now, I know. I am not a gullible person and I try to find out all the facts before I act. Now I see the insidious tactics of this organization. My boyfriend (and as it appears soon to be ex-boyfriend) has quoted the stats: "In the general population the divorce rate is 60%". In Amway, it is 2%". Obviously, this relationship cannot go anywhere, because I refuse to get involved with this organization, especially after reading your story. So, by the definition of a cult, members can only really become romantically involved with other members. Otherwise, it cannot work. In my view, the involvement that I have seen is of an addictive nature. I never in my life would have thought that a potential relationship could have been ruined by Amway, but nothing surprises me anymore. Thank you for verifying what I already guessed to be true. By the way,. my boyfriend has been involved with Amway for years, has a really good job. So, why then is he always broke? Marry someone like that? Not on your life.
Subject: Your Amway story (part 3) Sat, 6 Mar 1999 My brother went thru this "cult " experience. I now understand what he went thru . I think your article will help people make more informed decisions. Thanks and Nice Job!
Subject: suggestion for your faq page Sat, 06 Mar 1999 Hello. Amway is releasing on 9-1-99 a new internet mall called Quixtar. Was this in part done with a new name ( a seperate entity) to fool people, hence regain people previously turned off to Amway??? p.s. I think it is and it may or may not be a good idea except for the fact that the business plan isn't going to be changing....thus making it easier for people to make money.
Subject: mlm's Sun, 07 Mar 1999 Hi. Thanks for the info on Amway. I was almost snared by Amway about 10 years ago when I was a little more naive. The reason that I looked at your page is a really good friend (also my former boss) got involved in Equinox International and has tried to recruit me. He wouldn t tell me what the meeting was about but insisted that there was"a lot of money to be made". I reluctantly went to the meeting last thursday and was fed pretty much the same line that was given at an Am way and nsa(water filters) meeting. I mean exactly the same appeal to your greed BS, very flashy and shallow information, a certain sense of urgency that you were going to miss the boat if you didn t get in right now, that peculiar feeling that these people are hyped up to cover up for something that I just cant put my finger on( but its always the same skin-crawling feeling) and the list can go on-and-on as you probably very well know. I eventually was allowed to leave without divulging any information about myself and how I felt about the program, except that it looked good and that I might be interested. I was at the time very happy for my friend and told him so. He just lost his job and is sure this is going to make him rich. Later on, I went home and started looking into the company and was able to find out all I had ever wanted to know about Equinox and their way of doing business. They are very much like Amway and The pitch is very similar as well. He emailed me last night and told me that he went to a meeting yesterday and paid for the upcoming training seminar for next weekend(300 dollars a day) He is swallowing this thing hook, line and sinker. Any ideas of what I can say to him, or do I just stand by and let him get into this? I am at a loss....this person has always been a mentor for me and now I feel that I cant help him. Maybe I am just not trying. I am truly afraid of hurting his feelings and that there is a small chance that I can be wrong about this company...we never really know, do we. I hope I don't make you feel like Ann Landers or something...If you have some sites that have more of this info then that would be very helpful.. thanks
Subject: Your Amway story (part 3) Mon, 8 Mar 1999 Dear Russell, Unfortunately your views don't really matter. Your experience at a group meeting is not like the ones I attend occasionally. You're not uptodate on your facts. In fact way behind. How come Amway is the largest network marketing Company in the World, how come Amway has produced more millioniars than any other Corporation in the World? At least Phil and Ted and myself, are out there trying to better ourselves and our families. I joined, firstly because I am in business, for time purposes (my own shopping delivered to the door) whats bad about that - cheapest delivery charges etc.etc. My upline did not pressure me and it was eight months later that I found out the 'Plan' and went for it - why should I have to be working at my business 16hrs per day when there is a chance that this business will work. Within 2 months I now have 10 people active in my business and I told them all what my new business was - no secrets - I realise that this way is not the way it is recommended, but it is working for me. I don't pressure anyone to go to meetings, buy products, join etc., I just offer them a chance - sure I've had knock backs and I know its basically fear of the unknown, fear of change, not prepared to see that catalogue or internet shopping is a sign of the future. Are you aware that Amway Australia is now on the internet and each Distributor can now order on line? possibly not because it hasn't even hit America yet. Anyway I'm not prepared to waste any more of my precious time, you just continue to waste your time and money driving to the supermarket, waiting in line, carrying goods, losing your money and losing the chance to have the financial independence and freedom to do with your life what you want. Amway Distributor.
Subject: Mon, 08 Mar 1999 Even the Borg were defeated. (See "First Contact"). Resistance is NOT futile. Have hope.
Subject: Your Amway page... Mon, 8 Mar 1999 Russell, Boy, can I relate to the Amway horror stories -- My husband and I were in the business a while ago -- It didn't take long before my husband was so brain-washed that we no longer had a relationship -- not only was I unhappy, but our children suffered as well. Now, after a divorce, the loss of our home, and the near loss of my daughter and son, I can say I am Amway-free and happily married with one grandchild and one on the way -- The torment suffered because of the desire to dream . . . . thank God there are some of us out here who are strong and have the power to think on our own -- to know right from wrong. We are the real dreamers . . .
Subject: Your Amway story (part 3) Wed, 10 Mar 1999 Hey buddy, I just read your stuff on amway, and I'm glad I did. it just saved me a lot of time....I now know I won't have anything to do with this new quixtar shit thats coming out as a new e-comerce.... some guy has been calling me night and day bugging me about some e commerce thing, and I wouldn't give him the time of day, untill I reseached it...he gave me the web address to a website that had nothing to do with amway, never said the name amway or quixtar....but the envelope he gave me had the name quixtar written on it, so I did a search on quixtar, and came up with a bunch of amway articles, wich led to your page somehow...I just spent the last 5 hours doing this and reading what you have to say, but its better than wasting all the time you did finding it out first hand, and I really do appreciate the time you spend writing it and making it known, thanks... and I'll also tell other people I know thinking about doing this crap to check out your page...
Subject: Finished your Amway story... Thu, 11 Mar 1999 Hey Russell, THANK YOU FOR YOUR STORY !!!!! My name is ***** and I am no longer assimilated......I was a very active distributor for about 4 yrs and personaly sponsored over 30 people (unintentionally misled that is) and now my upline Emerald (very soon to be Diamond) has virtually begged me to look at the "Business" again. Its new and exciting and its all about the internet (very ironic considering your story) We are the dearest of friends and he has never beat me down for quitting but he has been waiting fro an opportunity to get me back in the throes of sponsoring again with this "new" revolutionary marketing idea that Amway is into. Question: Do you know or have you heard about this new ploy/gimmick that they are all on fire for ? They have hooked up with a company called Quixtar and they are supposed to be online in September of this year. I can't find out anything about this company. If you can help or have any leads to this new gimmick would you be kind enough to pass them on ? Thanks for taking the time to read this..
Subject: Finished your Amway story... Fri, 12 Mar 1999 Hello Russell, Thank God for your page, it tied it all together for me. I do NOT want this published, Australia is a small place, believe it or not. I received a letter from my friend.....their friends form "Network Twentone" came to visit me, did their sales pitch, and left me some tapes and info to go thru. Yeah right.... like I'm really gonna listen to them.... Low down is this.......you can only join Amway here in Australia if you are 'sponsored' ....and you can give them a list of your fiends names for them to draw up a letter of intro, all I have to do is sign it. It;s a real worry to me that they've sucked my friends in, hopefully I can help them, but I doubt it, they've been sucked in big time. Desperation and little money can do that to some people. But the funny thing is, I asked them if they were Amway, and they told me No, they just share the same warehousse and some catalogue items. Another thing, she left her info with me, arranged to pick it up at a certain time, but she never left her number for me to contact her....she thinks I'm going to sit around and wait for her to come pick it up and when she sees my hesitation, she can start on her pitch again. There has to be a law against this...
Subject: Ginny's Amway story (part 3) Thu, 11 Mar 1999 HI GINNY. I FEEL SORRY THAT YOU HAD THE EXPERIENCES YOU DID WHILE YOU WERE IN THE BUSINESS. UNFORTUNATELY YOUR STATEMENT OF "TO HELP OTHERS GET A PRETTY GOOD FEEL FOR HOW AMWAY WORKS" AS TO WHY YOU WROTE YOUR STORY COULD NOT BE FURTHER FROM THE TRUTH. YOUR EXPERIENCES AS BAD AS THEY WERE HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH THE AMWAY CORPORATION. YOU MUST ADMIT THAT. YOUR EXPERIENCES HAD EVERYTHING TO DO WITH YOUR UPLINE AND ORGANIZATION. I WOULDN'T BLAME ANYONE FOR FEELING THE WAY YOU DO WITH THAT EXPERIENCE. I PERSONALLY HAVE BEEN IN THE BUSINESS FOR 4 YEARS AND HAVE FOUND THAT THE CONCEPT OF AMWAY IS A GREAT OPPORTUNITY BUT AS FAR AS SUCCEEDING IN IT, IT HAS EVERYTHING TO DO WITH YOUR UPLINE AND ORGANIZATION. THERE IS GOOD OUT THERE AND BAD. YOU UNFORTUNATELY WERE IN THE BUSINESS WITH THE BAD. LETTERS LIKE YOUR STATED THE WAY THEY ARE TOTALLY MISREPRESENT THE CORPORATION AND OTHER ORGANIZATIONS. I HAVE PEOPLE IN MY BUSINESS WHO HAVE BEEN IN OTHER ORGANIZATIONS THAT WERE TERRIBLE. I HOPE YOUR BAD FEELINGS ARE NOW CLEAR ENOUGH TO REALIZE IT HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH THE CORPORATION AND EVERYTHING TO DO WITH YOUR UPLINE. YOU ARE NEVER INVITED TO AN "AMWAY" MEETING UNTIL YOU GO DIRECT. UNTIL THEN IT IS ALL YOUR UPLINE. I HOPE OTHERS WHO READ YOUR MESSAGE CHECK OUT THE SYSTEM AND UPLINE BEFORE ENTERING THE BUSINESS. AND I HOPE THEY LOOK FOR THE GOOD ONES.
Subject: Your Amway story (part 1) Thu, 11 Mar 1999 No insults, just information! I've been in the business for a few years, one year quite active but never enjoyed the meetings! (The ones you pay for), I thought that every speaker was very fake and boring! I love the living rooms, when it is a speaker I like and trust. (three in my up-line). I do not get into buying the tapes, only a few to hand to people. I only get people in if I think they can do it! I do believe there is money to be made with out the "scamway" aspect of it. I only buy the cleaning products that do last a lot longer, deodorant, hand soap, garbage bags, and Artistry. A bunch of us put in our order together to cut down on shipping etc. If you get big accounts like are local bus garage loving there cleaning products etc. you can make money!! I am not involved with the upline unless it is something I need. Like a training session on Artistry. Besides that they don't even have my phone number! I just decided last week to start back in full force. I've been looking into it on the web like you did and do agree with some. The cult thing is kind of scary, but you can run the business with out doing all that!! Just say "no" and run your business! It is that easy. I did all my own price comparison's and will not buy expensive things, or even do my 100 PV if I don't want to, and no one say's a word. Anyway, that is all any feed back let me know! Hey, how about IBM and Microsoft teaming up with them in this new virtual mall??? www.countdown9199 Do you think that they can scam big companies like that go check it out and give me your feedback!!
Subject: Your Amway story (part 3) Fri, 12 Mar 1999 Your a smart man and you have a good Dad. I had similar experience and stayed skeptical. What they are pitching now is, if you buy into Amway now you will be grandfathered into the quixtar mall that is going on line 9/1/99. Also if you get in now that your income from the mall and amway will be grouped together and you can get a better precentage of profit. If you join after 9/1/99 you will get Amway separate gross points and mall separate gross points. To mean that if you sold $4000 of Amway and $4000 of the Mall, and you know how the percentage of profit goes up by the more points, that the two could be $8000 gross if I join now. Also they are saying Microsoft is involved and how it must be a great idea if they are involved. Thanks for your efforts of helping the poor people hoping to get ahead through Amway and are just injured more financially.
Subject: Your Amway story (part 2) Sat, 13 Mar 1999 Russell I am having a blast going through your and Jenny's story! Haven't had this much enjoyment in years. Thanks! I wish I had come across a site like yours about two years ago - when I quit my Wall Street job, cashed in my pension and pursued a Quixotic quest for MLM wealth. The worst part of MLM is the deception and personality changes people have to endure. It corrupts our relationships and taps insiduosly into people's dreams and fears. I was never part of Amway. But the things you described are common to all MLM firms. I am finally awakening to the obvious. Thanks again,
Subject: Your Amway story (part 3) Sun, 14 Mar 1999 Thanks for your web page story. I too was almost scammed by Amway. Everything they told you in their initial pitch was exactly the same as they told me. They tried to get me into their new internet based e-commerce business. Do you know about that? Well, anyway thanks alot. I almost feel as if you saved my life. sincerely and gratefully,
Subject: Your Amway page... Mon, 15 Mar 1999 Very good reading.all of it ... i'm glad to know I'm not the only one with a brain. 10 years ago I had a roommate/best fiend (yes fiend) who gave up selling shoes for Scamway. I couldn't believe what he said the first day; "It's the only business you can will over to your kids when you die." huh? since when? and all kinds of other crap... I wish I could have pointed him at your story. In a matter of 3 weeks he lost all integrity and was trying to screw my girlfriend to boot. needless to say I dropped them both without a seconds thought.. with friends like that, who need enemies. PS i do believe that my ex friend is walking door to door selling monkey puppets and other crap these days,, so I guess he spent his Amway millions already. Keep using your head I'm sure you will continue to create a rewarding present and future for yourself.
Subject: Your Amway story (part 1) Mon, 15 Mar 1999 Interesting. You seem to be a very skeptical individual willing to work for another man for the rest of your life. Good luck. Some day might come.
Yeah, but on the other hand, some other day might come.
Subject: [Fwd: Motivation Campaign] Mon, 15 Mar 1999 Hi, Russell, In case you don't recall, I wrote you about a month ago about your Amway site and how I was quitting Amway and looking for a few decisive tidbits to convince my wife to leave with me. I'm pleased to share that we're both officially out! But that's not what I'm writing to share about. When we were in Amway, we found that many people in the organization are real big into "positive talk" propaganda (i.e. quote for the day, 365 inspirations a year, etc.). I don't know if there is a more common label for this stuff. In moderate amounts, it probably is inspiring. But as with everything in Amway, our sponsors OD on the stuff. If you experienced the same thing in your exposure to "the organization of winners!", you'll appreciate the attached PowerPoint presentation. Hope all is well with you. Best Regards,
The attachment to this letter was a PowerPoint presentation that demonstrated an "anti-motivation" campaign. I suppose motivation junkies would find it depressing; I thought it was hilarious. I will post it if anyone requests.
Subject: Your Amway page...some free advice. Wed, 17 Mar 1999 I can't help but think, after browsing your web page (http://www.willynet.com/rglasser/amway/), that if you had put half as much enthusiasm and energy into making money in Amway as you have this web site, you could have at least made a few bucks. How much have you gained by smearing your unwanted murmurings all over the Internet? One thing I know is true, you will never make a dime from complaining about it. Common sense goes a long way.
Subject: Great Job, Thu, 18 Mar 1999 Dear Russell, I have enjoyed reading the comments and the stories on your page. My wife had a brush with Amway some years back, and although I did not personally join, I agreed to let her try it. She was out within a month. In short, Amway does the old bait and switch. As long as there are people cheering you on, you tend not to look too deeply. I want to thank you for putting this web site together. Some of your links do not appear to be working. Specifically, the one in Part two of your story that links to facts and figures on the number of diamonds as well as the total number of people in Amway. I have been curious about that for a long time, obviously, and that was one of the arguments that I used on the Amway sponsors. Why can't you tell us how many people are making it? Thanks again,
Subject: Your Amway story (part 1) Fri, 19 Mar 1999 I have a similar Amway experience. As a matter of fact, tomorrow morning, a guy from my church, is going to try to rope me in. He keeps calling (nagging) me. I've tried to be polite, but, he doesn't seem to ever let up. I will have to get blunt with him. He started the motivational tape crap with me also. And one night he even had me over to his house for a meeting with his sponsor. All they talked about was cars, houses, dreams, ect. But there was very little business details discussed. Well, I gotta go (important meeting in the morning, he, he, he!) Thanks for the info...
Subject: Your Amway page... Fri, 19 Mar 1999 I went to a meeting about four years ago with an opthamologist I know who was just getting started in this great "business opportunity" and just wanted to share it with me. What a great guy. Anyway, we were sitting there before the meeting and I asked him to tell me more about this "opportunity" before the presentation got started. All I could get him to say was that it was "all about making money, lot's of money". I didn't tell him that I thought that was what medical school was for, but I wanted to. I also didn't tell him that I already knew it was Amway because I had spotted an old high school acquaintance who was into it big time. I continued to pepper him with probing questions for about ten more minutes then added - "Sounds good to me, just as long as it's not that ridiculous Amway scam". You should have seen the look on his face, it was priceless. I stayed for the show just to see how long it would take for someone to actually use the word Amway. It was an hour and ten minutes into the speech- making before I actually heard it. If the system, products, etc. are so great, why don't they just come out and use the company name? They seem to be embarrassed that they actually got caught in the scheme themselves and can't get out.
Subject: Your Amway page... Sat, 20 Mar 1999 amway in canada! we have been told that ibm and microsoft are opening that virtual store "quixtar" and ofcourse the vanandel and the devos family( not many people know that they are amway). it seems that everybody around me has the" i be rich next year fever" i have tryed to contact microsoft and ibm so i can prove to my friends that they are being played for dumm. but i am only a housewife and my recorces are limited.any advice you can give me in order to put a stopper to this??
Subject: Finished your Amway story... Sat, 20 Mar 1999 Hi.. just finished your story. This is gonna be good. It seems that AMWAY has a new idea...QUIXSTAR....an internet selling scheme. There is a meeting tonight that I was asked to go to. Letme say one thing.. I AM MORE A SKEPTIC than you. And I am gonna have fun at this thing. I have been thru the Militarys brainwashing, where they take all your clothes, tell you when to eat, sleep , pee, shave, talk, walk, sit, stand, speek and look. So....altho I am a relaxed person who does his best to listen and learn, I expect the smae in return. After hearing them talk, they MUST, if they are truly Loving as they say, listen to me. Anyways, I just wanted to say that I enjoyed your letter, and am glad you wrote it. I think that if I get involved in this QUIXSTAR program...all I plan on doing is sending the IBO number to friends online and other friends and telling them that the company is a subsidiary of AMWAY and that they need to do research on prices and availablities and so on before they decide to buy anything off the internet. The Internet is the way to go in buying things online, and it IS a good idea....AS LONG AS THEY KEEP THE AMWAY SCHEME AND PHILOSOPHY OUT OF IT. I dont plan on selling people anything....or even doing anything like they say.....just pass out the IBO number and tell them up front and let them decide. If $$ come my way...fine....if not..fine. one ting about your letter.....you didnt state this obvious thing....or you did and i missed it...when Phil got mad at you and stated that you would never suceed..... he revealed his true intentions.....that on your own, you are nothing.....you need him....you need to support him in order for yourself to succeed..... Funny aint it?
Subject: re: Amway Sat, 20 Mar 1999 My soon to be x-husband and I were involved with Amway for 3 years. I didn't want to be involved because my dad did it years ago and never made any money. Hubby got me involved - somehow. And we went to meeting, after meeting, after function, after meeting, to house meeting, etc., etc., etc. We ended up spending more money than we made, ended up in major debt -- because we HAD to go to every function, HAD to be on Standing Order Tape, buy books, buy all their products -- or else -- we'd never be up on stage -- we just wouldn't be "it". We went away to a function while my mother-in-law lay dying in a retirement home --- because "we had to think of the future". Everyone in our line of sponsorship was our "best friend" -- till we decided we couldn't afford to do it anymore. We've been "out of the loop" for 2 years, and haven't heard from not even one of our dear little friends. We are now going through a divorce, which I can honestly say was not helped along one bit by Amway, partly due to a large amount of debt. We've lost friends, and have relatives who now no longer speak to us, because of the "Plan". If I sound bitter -- well -- I think I have a right to be. I think the way Amway people go about things in the organization is along the line of cruel, and I really hope that anyone who would think to even try to Ad-Pac me on contact me really think about it and think again I am now working in a Dual Diagnosis Unit of a Rehab for drug addicts and alcohols. It is the most rewarding job I have ever had - and really feel I'm doing some good for the world. There is definately more to life than money and material objects. Best of luck to you in all you do in the future!
Subject: Your Amway page... Sat, 20 Mar 1999 Aloha from Hawaii, There's mention of DREAM BUILDERS, but have you heard of NETWORK 21? This is the group that is currently trying to recruit me. My husband is very skeptical and agrees with you 100%, and that is why I thought I'd research Amway. I also agree that what I've heard sounds like this is a Cult! Network 21 is now talking about Amway going on the internet with a new Vortex called QUIXTAR, which will begin Sept 1, 1999. It would be a totally separate company from Amway, offering merchandise from several manufacturers via Quixtar. There is little information available on the internet (quixtar.com or countdown9199.com or n21.com). Check these out (if you haven't already done so) & continue writing your story with an update regarding "9199". (It's called this because it's the beginning of the fiscal year for Amway). I'm just a working wife & mom who like a lot of people I know, was looking for ways to supplement our income & a friend of mine approached me with this. I attended one meeting and she calls me everyday to see if I'm ready to sign up. I thought I'd try to see if I could get others I knew interested before I signed up so I would at least have a downline before I made any investment ($). So far, I've only had negative comments. There was another woman (Lisa) at the first presentation that I attended (she was there as a prospect by the friend who took me) and she told a story of her own experiences 10 years ago as an Amway distributor. She stated that she was "overwhelmed" by all the meetings, while being a full time mom of a three year old & a newborn. That scared me! I already have a stressful position working in a medical clinic and I surely didn't want to get into something that would be similarly stressful. I just talked to my friend who's trying to get me to sign up & I asked her if Lisa signed up & I was dumbfounded to hear that she had. I'm so confused. I hope I do the right thing. Thanks for listening!!!
Subject: Looking for Stephen Butterfield's book Sat, 20 Mar 1999 Love the Amway web page! I was approached about the "opportunity" by a co-worker. I very nicely said no. 46 times. Then I started changing the subject, another 50 times. She got the message (I truly hope). Anyway, I am looking for Stephen Butterfield's book "Amway: The Cult of Free Enterprise". Do you know where I can get a copy? I am not having any luck finding it.
Subject: Your Amway story (part 1) Sun, 21 Mar 1999 What do you think of the new Quixstar and the endless E-commerce possibilities which don't compare with your story at all. I agree that the old Amway was a hoax because of the product and the method of distribution...what about the online mall with 10s of thousands of products and no product to carry?
All these mounds of letters about quixtar and countdown9199 finally inspired me to write the Frequently Asked Questions page. Please go there in the future if you want to know what I think.
Subject: YourAmwaystory(part3) Mon, 22 Mar 1999 Your story is so true!!! My husband and I were, shall I say, "accosted" by our {what we thought were our new best friends} neighbors last summer.They couldn't be more friendly and helpful! Amway people now scare me: they are like talking to a brick wall, unless you're talking about "the business". Thank-you for sharing your experience; it's nice to know we were'nt alone.
Subject: Finished your Amway story... Tue, 23 Mar 1999 My Brother and Sister-in-law are getting involved in Amway. Both are serious cocaine addicts with severe marital problems, including brutal physical abuse. Neither one can seem to hold down a job(wonder why)--their children are often neglected(hers...he hasn't fathered any of them). They are all excited about this new internet stuff that is supposed to be the wave of the future...I'm assuming you have been following the Amway stuff---correct me if I'm wrong. The thing that really sickens me is that they have suckered my Dad into going to the meetings. Not only have they stolen posessions from his house to pay for drugs, but they are going to "baste his brain" with this bullshit. He thinks he is once again helping them"get clean"......In your dealings with Amway, did you encounter any groups offering to help with drug addicts or people in abusive situations? I'm afraid they have hooked up with people who will help them continue their hobby in return for names of people to "prey" upon, ect. I hope I'm just being the paranoid overprotective sibling, but I'd really appreciate some insight from someone like you. Thank you for your time
Subject: Finished your Amway story... Wed, 24 Mar 1999 Thanks for the story. I have recently joined AMWAY South Africa, and I am fairly well educated (I would like to believe - cum laude Chemical Engineering, MSc. Part time in progress, BSc. part time in comps, quantitative management, stats) and I thought I would comment on your very long story. Your letter definitely highlights some valid points about Network 21, and the techniques that they use to hype people up. They have been fairly successful since there are several wealthy people in the world from the AMWAY business. I do have to say this - yes, in some cases the products are more expensive than what is on the market, but in my country they are generally anything from 0% to 30% cheaper. So fact one is the products here are cheaper. Maybe I am ignorant, but just about anything is a zero sum game so I am not sure how buying products from a different supplier makes me lose anthing ? Next thing that is true is that the tapes and other add ons are expensive - but I sincerely believe that they are not entirely necessary. So far the books I have read are written by very highly respected authors and whose teachings can be applied to anything in life : is there anything wrong with that ? In fact a lot of the stuff on the tapes are just formalised versions of methods that I have already used for my success as an engineer. I will never quit my job because I do not believe in all honesty that everyone can become rich in this business, I only hope to subsidise my income a little What am I trying to say. Life is a matter of balance - take anything to extreme and lie to yourself then you headed in the wrong direction. Some people are extremists : these are some of the people that live for seminars, prospecting, "lieing", tapes - these are some of the people that you have met. Thank you for your story it has helped widen my perspective, but I am a happy AMWAY product user.
Subject: Your Amway story (part 2) Wed, 24 Mar 1999 Sir: Never being in Amway (and still being a pro on the subject) leaves you in the dark about who and what you're speaking about. Sorry, but you speak of Amway as being the cult, greedy bad guy, etc, when you aren't talking about the Corporation, you're talking about the Distributor Organizations such as Internet owned by Yager and the organizations of other Diamonds. Amway Corporation is a great organization.....it's the Distributor organizations that give it a bad name. The Corporation has grown because of them, but has its hands tied when it comes to controlling them. You have some valid arguments but some of what you say has to be hearsay to you. I'm still trying to fugure out why you need to bash an organization to which you were never involved. Have you figured that out?
Subject: Your Amway story (part 2) Wed, 24 Mar 1999 im not a amway distributor yet. i tried the business many years ago and failed the reasons i thought were no spouse support and i felt customers could get the same products at the store more conveniently. anyhow i stopped and life went on years have went by and my wife and i own and run a successful retail store. anyhow friends of ours took us to a meeting and basically it was the same as years before except the quixtar thing. this really sparked interest due to the fact we have lost retail sales to the internet and there is a good chance that alot of people are going to order out of their homes. So i starting surfing the net and wow! what is going on with amway. i have seen lawsuits, web sites from people that quit etc. depending on where you look you get positive or negative. so do i join or not its sounds to me that your effort is not directly proportional to your earnings but the world is going to the internet help! Subject: Ginny's Amway story (part 3) Wed, 24 Mar 1999 ginny sorry to hear about your ordeal. My wife and I own a successful retail store but we have no free time as such so we are looking at other alternatives so please tell me straight what is wrong with amway. We have lost sales to the internet from our store and we both realize the computer is going to be a key player in society. We buy at wholesale and sell at retail in a storefront but it does make sense from a consumer standpoint to buy as cheap as possible and as convenient as possible so tell me why is amway getting such a bad wrap? is it because they are not straight with people or crooks or what. and what is this cult stuff? I think if I started a web based buying business and did it honestly and straight forward it would be successful but im not sure how i would set up the earnings commisions if any. e-mail me back any info would help at this point. i dont think we are going to pursue it but my curiousity is still there.
Subject: Your Amway page... Thu, 25 Mar 1999 Hiya! Just another letter of thanks, for your Amay page. I know you've been receiving a lot of those, but I recently was able to make such good use of it, that I was compelled to write you. A friend of mine works at a Radio Shack, where he's quite happy and makes a fairly decent wage. A customer of his the other day started giving him a sales pitch, and managed to wrangle contact info out of him including phone number. In return, my friend was pointed to the website at www.countdown9199.com. Well, I'm a regular on sci.skeptic, and alt.religion.scientology, where I take part in somewhat combatative debates against scam artists such as phony astrologers, phony psychics, ufo nuts, and the entire coporation of scientology. (I am, in fact, such an enemy of scientology now that my name has been classified as a 'dirty word' and is now censored by the "net nanny" software they have installed on their machines - something I'm both chagrinned and somewhat proud of) Anyway, my friend knew all of this, since I kept him up-to-date on my debates, throuhg emails of pertinent sections, and when he was presented with the URL for that website, he asked me to take a look through it, since something just didn't sound right. So, I sat down, and went through the website, and posted a complete disassembly of it's contents. You can read the pertinent sections of my letter to him at: http://www.furnation.com/cobalt/scam.txt Knowing there had to be more to this than meets the eye, I also posted a copy of that letter to sci.skeptic, and a reply was not long in coming. THESE GUYS ARE AMWAY. And there was the punchline. However, when I tossed this information to my friend, he had no idea what Amway was. So, it was off to the web for a good search... Your page proved to be an invaluable source of information about the situation with Amway, not only through your own experiences, but also through the links you provide. At this point, my friend has been contacted a second time, and doubtless will be hearing By the time I'd gotten this all together, my friend had been contacted a second time - by phone. I have no doubt that he was skimmed the same way you were, and that they're going to make an attempt to get him to buy into Amway - but with the ammo your site has offered, there's no chance of them getting him. He knows the score now. Cheers!
Hope you caught the link; it's kind of funny.
Subject: Your Amway story (part 3) Thu, 25 Mar 1999 Well, its not for everyone huh! Have fun retiring with the the other 98% of America dead broke!
Subject: Ginny's Amway story (part 2) Fri, 26 Mar 1999 Hello, I have great friends who have "joined" Amway within the past 6 months. How can I get them to see that Amway is so deceiving? They call me a dream stealer and accuse me of being afraid of failure. I think they thing "The Plan" is more wonderful than "The Bible" Thanks.
Subject: Continue to read this too! Fri, 26 Mar 1999 Hello again... Ok I feel like I'm stalking you now.... I just saw your home page (after reading the article unfortunately) and I thought it funny that the newsletter I do everymonth has so many of it's copies going to Fort Worth.... other than Michigan... it's like the hub of Amway! (Well, I'm in Charlotte and it's pretty quiet around here now even though Dexter himself is from this area.... nontheless... I bet we're familiar with some of the same people.....I'm really curious to who "Phil" really is. If you can... let me know...
Subject: My experience with Amway Sat, 27 Mar 1999 Hi, My name is ***** and I'm from Romania. I read your story and I think you did a good thing by making it available for other people to read it on WWW. I would like to share my experience with Amway. I heard about Amway about two years ago from one of may relatives. He tried to recruit me (a young, promising student in computer science) to be part of the Amway business. It invited me to his place to see some sort of "presentation". Hi was very vague about that meeting and I was a bit intrigued and I agreed to go. That evening there were six or seven persons present except me and the host and his wife. There was a middle aged woman (a math teacher) who held the presentation. It was done in a quite "pro" manner. She told us that Amway is a good opportunity to make some extra money. She explained how the system works and that we wouldn't find Amway products in ordinary stores. As she mentioned the multi level marketing and what the "upline" is, she stated that it is not a pyramidal system. (I should mention at this point that in my town, Cluj-Napoca, the Caritas system was very popular for about 2 years and it eventually end very badly for many people who put their hopes in it). She also presented some examples of financial plans and computations. For me it was clear that something was wrong about her reasoning. She told the us about the tapes we should listen to in order to understand better the system, that we should attend weekly the meetings and so on. The more she talked the more I felt that this business wasn't for me. As I understood, at some point I should make similar presentations and recruit people to build my own "downline", basically to be some sort of salesman. That was definitely not my style. That lasted about half an hour and then she invited each of us for a private chat. She gave to all of us a tape (which we were supposed to return after we listened to it) an some printed advertising material. At the end I was glad that I could leave. As I got home I played the tape. It was poor quality, but I listen to it about half an hour. A "diamond" was talking at a meeting (I don't remember where in U.S.A; it was "translated over"). I was disgusted by the adulation of the audience, by the ideas that were presented there. The main goal of everybody in that room was to get more money, to go up in the hierarchy, and eventually to become a "diamond". As you said in your story "they worshiped the ground he walked on". And that confirmed me that this does not suit me and it conflicts with my principles about life. I don't see myself doing that. That was the first and last meeting I attended to. A week after this, that relative of mine came to my place and we talked about me joining the business. I refused him politely with arguments that I have to study, I also have a part time job and I don't have time for all those meetings. Since then, I'm through of Amway. I hope that your pages will help people to be aware of true aspects of being part of Amway organization.
Subject: Your Amway story (part 1) Sat, 27 Mar 1999 I'm not going to insult you, I just think it's sad that you didn't give it a chance and that you are so willing to believe what you read on the web. Please see the following: Press Release. In connection with a lawsuit filed against Procter & Gamble for its active support of a false and misleading anti-Amway web site, Amway Corporation has served subpoenas on six individuals and groups. Amway believes those served with subpoenas have participated in or have been party to a coordinated anti-Amway attack subsidized by P&G on the Internet and that they may possess valuable evidence about P&G's dissemination of inflammatory and false information about Amway. These subpoenas are not about freedom of speech; rather, they are about the collection of evidence. The subpoenas call for all documents -- paper and electronic -- pertaining to P&G's anti-Amway activities. These include communications with P&G and its attorneys, information about various web sites, and communications between individuals engaged in anti-Amway activities. If these individuals and groups do not have information relevant to the lawsuit, these subpoenas should be of no concern. In November 1998, Amway filed its lawsuit against P&G to protect Amway's successful, multi-national business. Amway filed the lawsuit after learning that P&G was providing misleading information to the author of an anti-Amway web site and was supporting the author of that web site with free legal services and consulting payments. The Complaint, filed in Michigan federal court, challenges P&G's once-secret consulting relationship with Mr. Schwartz, who has used the World Wide Web to spread false or misleading information about Amway. In an ironic twist, Amway found out about P&G's relationship with Mr. Schwartz during the defense of another case in which P&G falsely claimed Amway was behind an old, false rumor that P&G subsidizes the Church of Satan. Amway prefers to meet its competitors in the open marketplace, not cloaked behind a mask of false and misleading attacks. By collecting evidence about P&G's subsidy of false and misleading attacks on the Internet, Amway hopes to return to a level playing field with P&G and other manufacturers of household and personal care products.
Again, to people spreading the rumor that Amway "found out" about the "secret" relationship between Sid and P&G, please consult the Frequently Asked Questions page.
Subject: Amway: A Success Story?!? Sun, 28 Mar 1999 Russell, An interesting site...very good observations. I have not been involved in Amway myself, however, I have a number of friends who have (or are) and of course, I've been approached by them all. In my effort to determine the validity of their claims I did quite a bit of research on my own (in books, magazines, and on the net) which you may find useful. First, let me begin with an assumption: there are only two reasons to buy anything; 1) it's reasonably well made and cheap (a "price/performance leader") or 2) it is a high quality product and worth paying an premium for (a "value leader"). If you have a product that cannot meet either of these objectives--the later often being a case of perception--there is simply no compelling reason for anyone to buy it. The other aspects of Amway many seem incapable of understanding are market saturation and the fundamental workings of the Amway profit machine. Your 10^10 is an example of the saturation scenario, but in real economic terms it DOES NOT mean Amway is a scam anymore than owning a McDonalds is...we can't all be successful in Amway just as we can't all own profitable McDonalds franchises ('cause we'd all eat in our own restaruants and never make a dime!). What it does mean is only a select group of people in any field will ever make a substantial amount of money. Where Amway falls apart is in asserting everyone can get rich, because they can't. In understanding the workings of the Amway profit machine, it is important to note a distinct difference between "core" products and "non-core" products. Core products are those Amway produces and has huge margins built into...vitamins are a good example. To be truly successful in Amway, you must have an alligence to these core items (because $300 spent on core products will earn you much more than $300 spent on non-core) and use them exclusively--known as "going core" in Amway lingo. Can you be successful in Amway and do it ethically? I would have to say yes, but I think you would have to break the mold to do it. I went to an Amway ralley in Atlanta last year with a friend to see what goes on at these things and this much is a fact, people just like you and me are making well over $60K a year at this (not counting expenses). I saw about 5,000 people at this ralley, and I talked to a lot of them about what they liked about Amway and why they were there (I was absolutely amazed by their enthusiasm and wondered if I could somehow get the people who work for me to be so excited about the jobs they already have that pay them a whole lot more than Amway!). Wanna know what it is that draws people to Amway? Amway--for those who really buy into it--makes people feel valued and gives them a sense of belonging (amazing...something Dr. Abraham Maslow noticed about how people tick around 40 years ago). Amway systematically permeates every aspect of your life: finanical (your view of $); spiritual (the importance of God); intellectual (what you hear/read); and social (who you spend your time with). It surrounds you with focused efforts to get you to depend on Amway, leveraging all of the cravings of the human psyche in an attempt (a conscious one no doubt) to bond you to the Amway system, making you dependent on it for not only your income, but your definition of self. Corporations, by and large, don't do this at all. Corporations rarely care about anything other than what you do when you're on the clock. Maybe, just maybe, people really do crave the sense of community (synthetic as it may be) Amway creates. It is worth noting the perceptions of a number of industrial social psychologists in the early part of this century who pointed out the potential damage in human terms of a heavily mechanized and automated industrial culture. An interesting side bar...most of the tapes and books you talked about people being "required to buy" have a very important purpose. These tapes and books are produced by Amway in their own studios using their own actors. The tapes and books cost next to nothing to produce, and the Diamonds involved in making/selling them directly benefit from their sale (hence the focus on tapes, books and motivation). Only logical right ;-) You can certainly make money at Amway...I know people who have. The real question is what happens along the way and whether or not you can distinguish between Amway the business and Amway the social creation. If you can focus on the business process and forget the social B.S. (and of course perpetuate the same in your downline) you have a good chance of coming out unscathed. I'm sure none of this is new to you, but it is important for people to understand what they are up against. It is late, I need to run...hopefully this is something you can use. If this doesn't make sense, bear with me, I've been awake too long.