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Subject: Your Amway story (part 3) Sun, 28 Mar 1999 Interesting story. Very familiar to the first group of "Amroids" that I joined in the late '70s, earlly 1980's. I'm sure you'll find, due to the extensive research you've done that there are good and bad in every business, even computer programing. (I could relate, if you like, a number of personal experiences with "professional programmers" that wanted to charge me $1,500-$2,500 for programs for my automotive business which I ended up getting for under $500, "off the shelf") Anyway, because like you, I'm a skeptical kind of guy (too may years as a police detective) I did a little more "real" research than you did. I found a number of interesting items. 1.) There has never been a R. Glasser employed by the Amway Corporation of Ada MI.(again bad employee doesn't equal bad employer) 2.) Had you called "Distributor Relations" at the Amway Corporation, "Ted" and "Phil" probably would've been reprimanded or if the violatons of the rules of conduct were severe enough, had their distributorships "yanked". (Do research on the Al Kiernan, ex-Diamond direct distributor situation.) 3.) One can, as my family does, treat our Amway business like we treat our other businesses, "like a business". (I too run a web-site and Internet Development company, as well as interests in a Cellular/PCS company and past ownership of a good-sized automotive reconditioning center). 4.)We don't idolize our upline, they are human just like us and can make huge mistakes (and have, similar to us!) 5.) Our line of sponsorship (the latest of 3 prior, ugly ventures) has turned out to be "real people" They are fairly strong on dropping the "A-word" right up front in a prospecting situation. Their "information" tapes all mention Amway in the first minute or two. Prospects are encouraged to "check it out" for themselves. 6.) We actually make money with our Amway business that not only exceeds our expenses but is a nice "additional income stream". (no, we are not Diamond Direct) Bottom line: You had a bad deal, no two ways about it (if you want to see really bad, we'll chat sometime about some "Diamond" tellling me I would never build the business if I wasn't a bible thumpin' Christian like him. He came close to meeting his "maker" that day) but good news or bad news however you look at it. The business does work, has worked for us to the extent that we've pursued it (way way less than even "part time") and will continue to work in the future. (something about a 40+ year track record). So, rather than tell you that you are totally wrong, you're not (I do admire the "Lone Ranger" analogy, been there; done that) I guess my final question is, what do you have to offer me or anyone else that works better and will you be willing to help me do it? Thanx for your information.
Subject: Your Amway page... Mon, 29 Mar 1999 There is a "cult information group" that was legit at one time but forced into bankruptcy and the name purchased by the Scientologists (who outspent them in the legal battle that led to the bankruptcy.) The Scientologists co-opted the name and use it as a front. Is that the Cult Awareness Network you cited? If so, might be a good idea to find another source, regardless of the legitimacy or illegitimacy of the information as Scientology is without question a cult.
Subject: no insults here! thanks Mon, 29 Mar 1999 Hi! I promise I won't insult you. Although a year ago in my Amway-dom I would have. I just wanted to thank you for taking the time to put your site together. You were fortunate to find out info on Amway before you got in. I too was saved by information on a website, but only after a year and a half in the business. I was actually puting in a period of inactivity in order to transfer lines ( my upline wanted me to do things that conflicted with my ethics, imagine that!). At first I just e-mailed everyone telling them how wrong they were. Then I saw some stories of people who had experienced the same nutso stuff I had. I'm impressed with the insight you have into the business considering your limited experience. I will give one word of advice about leaving the business that I hope you pass on to anyone you know in. It takes three weeks of disassociation with Amway to start deprogramming yourself. As long as anyone keeps listening to the tapes, they keep on that "high". (It's like cocaine) After three weeks off my tapes ( It was hard, I own @ 200) I finally started to see the light, and the debt( @ $18,000, all from Amway) Thanks again for your site, and always remember your "why" Best wishes, **** former 1,000 P.V.
Subject: Ginny's Amway story (part 3) Mon, 29 Mar 1999 I'm not very impressed with your story. It has the same overtures of an alcoholic blaming everyone and everything else while denying his alcohol dependence. I must admit, it is a humorous story. I'm sure Ginny is not your real name. Who would be so stupid to say, "I have lost my marriage, my house, my daughter and almost my life because of Amway!" I think you need to do some serious introspection. Please do not respond, I have wasted too much time with you already. Hope you have a good life. Good luck, you need it.
I knew it! Ginny, you've been fooling me with a fake name all these years, you harlot!!! This guy has me completely convinced.
Subject: My reply to your Amway page
Mon, 29 Mar 1999
Russell, thanks for writing such an entertaining piece. I dont know if you
have heard about this, but Amway reps are now entering homes with their new
Quixtar (Quickstar) program. Its an internet e-mall that promises to get
you in on the ground floor of an internet based business, very exciting now
wouldn't you say? My husband and I are what you might call educated (he is
a phd mechanical engineer and I am an attorney--people Amway would LOVE to
have in their folds) and we were introduced to the company tonight by some
dear friends who are also very educated and accomplished. This is why I'm
most worried. Anyways during the sales pitch I came right out and said I
thought Amway was a cult, that you never make money at things like this, I
wanted to see actual dollar amounts that our presenter had made etc. I
wanted to know if I had to buy or sell Amway products on this virtual mall,
and what kind of work I had to do (a question I never had answered)
So, if I dont have to sell Amway, and I'm only associated with Amway
because it has developed this great distribution system and why recreate the
wheel, then maybe this wouldn't be such a bad busineess. Then he showed us
the MLM pyramid and the catalogs. While nursing my baby to sleep I browsed
through the catalog and realized that Amway sold a lot of other peoples
stuff and it was like a mall. I could get Sony, Hanes etc. So what was it
that made the virtual mall so different? (The rep claimed that Nordstroms
is going to be part of the new Quixtar mall--very reputable dealers etc)
NOTHING!! The virtual mall is just like on the catalog except it will be on
the computer. Perhaps my letter, and a million others to you, will heed
warning to others who would never let an amway person in their home in a
million years but for the term virtual mall. It might take the general
public a few years to figure this out, although anyone interested enough in
doing business on the net should be able to do a quick search under Yahoo
and find you and other amway stories. it is enticing to think of being in
the forefront of the ecomerance revolution. If only Amway were a true
revolutionary, and not coming in as a third string backup. Thanks for your
witty story. You reinforced our decision to stay away, now what to do with
our friends?! Signed--"almost bit" and very tired!
Subject: Your Amway story (part 2) Tue, 30 Mar 1999 Hello, I'm not an amway distrubutor.I'm an 18 yr old kid who just graduated high school And you weren't a distributer either, but you were approached by amway reps and almost "recuited". And since you decided that it didn't work for you...without even trying it makes you a completely ignorant, worthless human being. So are You working 9-5 every day typing code for some asshole wasting your life away? Good i'm glad to hear it.The Rat Race...You call amway reps "right wing", you idiot do you know what right wing means? Conservatives...people who fear change..despise it ..and try to stop it...this is a good description of yourself , someone who is afraid to change, afriad to make risks...this is a direct path to another dark age. humans have set thier own destiny's...space the final frontier ...why does it have to be the final frontier? Because humans are scared to face new things ...exploring new things is what makes people successful. ok amway people come on strong..go here! do this ! talk to him! Listen to this tape! but it doesnt mean you have to do it ...Im done wasting my time to harrassing you...but try to keep an open mind...peace.
Subject: Your Amway story (part 2) Thu, 1 Apr 1999 Hello, all! I have spent more years than I care to admit pursuing the Amway dream. There was a time when I felt there was little else. Reading these pages on the downside of Amway there is little I can disagree with. Yet, I had a good few laughs along the way. I knew from the start that the deal was dodgy - the tears on stage, Bill Britt expounding gun-law to eliminate commies and gays (this in Brighton, England - gay capital of, well, Sussex (so they like to think)), Dexter (is that a name or an inclination?) Yager and family, plus the sacred de Voss and van Andel tribes. All of whom were close personal friends of 'The Lord' and had righteousness on their side. Yeah, verily. But I did meet some fun people within the organisation, nearly all of whom are no longer acting distributors. On the whole, I think I got more out of it than it got out of me - apart from money, that is.
Subject: A VISUAL AID-Ponzi Pyramid Fri, 2 Apr 1999 Maybe incorporate this visual aid or an equivalent in your website. > Subject: rglasser@ix.netcom.com/A VISUAL AID > Date: Fri, 2 Apr 1999 07:58:00 -0800 > > > .........................WHY MULTI-LEVEL...... > .............MARKETING WILL NOT WORK....... > .........................................0....1............ > .......................................1.......6........... > .....................................2.........36.......... > ..................................3............216......... > ...............................4..............1,296........ > ............................5...................7,776....... > ........................6.......................46,656...... > .....................7...........................279,936..... > .................8...............................1,679,616.... > ..............9...................................10,077,696... > ..........10........................................60,466,176.. > .......11............................................362,797,056. > ................PONZI > PYRAMID......................... > > ........THIS CHART IS A MODEL OF A MULTI-LEVEL > MARKETING > .......SCAM AND SHOWS HOW THE NUMBER OF RECRUITS > NEEDED TO KEEP THE PYRAMID SCHEME WORKING CAN > QUICKLY EXCEED THE POPULATION OF THE UNITED STATES. > ..... IT ASSUMES THAT EACH PERSON RECRUITS SIX OTHER > ...PEOPLE THE NEXT MONTH, EACH OF WHOM WILL RECRUIT > ANOTHER SIX AND SO ON. THE COLUMN ON THE LEFT SHOWS > THE MONTH ANDTHE COLUMN ON THE RIGHT SHOWS THE > NUMBER OF PARTICIPANTS, IF NOBODY BREAK THE > CHAINS..... > >
Subject: YourAmwaystory(part3)
Sat, 3 Apr 1999
Your information is, like you said, just your opinion! If you spent
more time trying to get ahead in this world instead of wasting your time
with "SPAM", you would find life more enjoyable and rewarding. The
Amway Business isn't for everyne. It's for those who choose to help
others find a better way to utilize their time with their families
through home shopping, the latest trend of the 90's and will more than
double in the next 5 years. So, do yourself a favor; take a chill pill
dude and leave the writing about real world information to successful
people and not people like you with a chip on their shoulders and a
boulder up their ___!
Here's a bit of helpful information for you:
ATTITUDE
SUCCESSFUL PEOPLE DO THE THINGS THAT UNSUCCESSFUL PEOPLE REFUSE TO DO...
This is obviously the counter-slogan to "fools rush in where angels fear to tread."
Subject: Your Amway story (part 2) Mon, 5 Apr 1999 you are THE LOUCO PEOPLE, IF YOU BELIVE IN THIS /////? AMWAY IS BUSINESS.
What the heck is a louco person?
Subject: Amway & Private Investigators
Tue, 6 Apr 1999
I want to formally thank you for the article you wrote I was almost
in tears. I own one of the leading corporate investigation agencys
in Canada. My partner has been wrapped up in Amway for two years and
has driven us and everyone within a two mile radius crazy.
He is now broke, on the verge of divorce and looking to me to bail
him out. But he still keeps doing this marketing to everyone who is
alive and in the area.
My partner has been a corporate investigator for two years and is an
excellent investigator and just doesn't get it.
It would seem even a PI can get scooped.
Thank you for what you wrote.
Subject: Your Amway story (part 1) Tue, 6 Apr 1999 you is maluco, fanatico, lunatico0 ooo, pois quem não percebe isto e tão ou mais que you, pois tá na cara que voce tem esta pagina pagha por alguém para dizer estas coisa da amway, nos aqui no brasil tratamos isto como negocio e não com malucos como voce. RESPONDA-ME SE TIVERES CORAGEM IDIOTA////// Subject: Your Amway story (part 1) Tue, 6 Apr 1999 IDIOTA , MALUCO, VAI PROCURAR A TUA TURMA????? Subject: Re: Your Amway story (part 1) Tue, 06 Apr 1999 I don't speak Spanish. So here you are, calling *me* an idiot when you are responding to a web page in the wrong language? Subject: Your Amway story (part 2) Wed, 7 Apr 1999 the first my is´nt spanish is PORTUGUESE, I DON´T WRITE IN ENGLISH, BUT I,read in english. por isso se qiseres enterder my linguage study PORTUGUESE. POIS TALVEZ VOCE NÃO SEJA REALMENTE UM IDIOTA E SIM UM GAY ESPERTO, POIS PARA MANTER ESTA PAGINA JUNTO COM AQUELE OUTRO ' MALUCO DO SIDNEY SCHARTZ, voces devem estar ganhando muito dinheiro dc alguém:? MAYBE '"PROCTER & GAMBLE", OU OXISFRESH, quem sabe de onde vem o dinheiro ? ou voçes são realmente dois malucos tipo que tem muito ai nos EUA , tais como KLU KLUX KLAN, que sabe voces não fazem parte de uma KLU KLUX KLAN AGAINST AMWAY? HEIM////, OU SÃO MUITO SICK(DOENTE) E MAY A DOCTOR , I AM A DOCTOR HÁ 15 ANOS, MAYBE I CAN HELP YOU? BECAUSE A AMWAY HERE IN BRAZIL IS VERY BIG BUSINESS E NOT RELIGIAO AND CULT. There are many doctors, engenheiros,advogados , judge, entre outros envovidos com este negocio e não somos BURROS OU IGNORANTES OU IDIOTAS E NEM CULTIVAMOS CULTO Á NINGUEM EM NOSSAS REUNIÕES, SE ISTO OCORRE NO SEU PAIS NOS EUA É POR QUE AI EXISTEM MUITOS MALUCOS COMO VOCES Subject: Re: Your Amway story (part 2) Wed, 07 Apr 1999 > Caio Marcos wrote: > > the first my is´nt spanish is PORTUGUESE, I DON´T WRITE IN ENGLISH, BUT > I,read in english. Fair enough. Obviously I neither write nor speak Portuguese, so it should be clear to you that you will have to either write me in English, or not communicate with me... comprende? As for whatever gibberish you are saying about Sid Schwartz and P&G, I have known Schwartz a long time through personal email correspondence, I know exactly the nature of his relationship with the company, and I think it's the most ridiculous thing for Amway to take his consulting relationship, which was never a secret, and which began two years after he wrote his web site, as evidence of a big conspiracy.
Subject: Thanks for the research Tue, 06 Apr 1999 Russell, I was researching MLM organizations and came across your page (and Ginny's story). Fortunately, I don't have such a horror story to tell. Interesting, my research involves software, "referral marketing systems." Of course that's what Amazon.com uses in their affliate marketing program. Put links with books on your website and if someone places and order you'll get a %. I found a list of over 300 MLMs and Amway was in more than 50% of the categories. The complicated bookkeeping of Amway is all software driven. The Internet Associate programs are all database driven. I came across BETMAKER.com which is offering $20 per paid lead (but just read the legal agreement!) Forget using fear how about gambling. Scary... Thanks again for the food for thought.
Subject: WOWEE-ZOWEE!!! What a Story!!!
Wed, 7 Apr 1999
Russ,
First off, I have to say that even if this story was all fiction, what
a great story! I kept thinking, "If only someone could make a movie
out of this," which is my usual reaction to reading something that
totally draws me in. (Maybe a TV Movie of the Week...;) Very
engrossing and well written. It's *so* nice to see intelligent,
literate people on this free-for-all we call the Internet. One of my
pet peeves is spelling errors and grammatical mistakes. I know, I
know. Not everyone can be perfect all the time. Including me. But, I
can wish, can't I?
(What follows is yet another story, I'm sure, like so many others you
have read. If you want to skip to the praise, go to the last
paragraph*.)
Secondly, while I was not approached by Amway, I briefly considered
joining with Equinox. I have just recently moved back to Savannah and
was scanning the classified ads looking for a new job a few weeks
ago. The ad I answered was titled "Fresh Start" and was looking for
people to help run the office of a company that was expanding to
Savannah. All I was really looking for was a quiet little back office
job, doing filing or something, to pay bills while I pursued my art
and started a family with my freshly wedded husband. So, I called
and...oh, you know how it went. Blah, blah, blah. Same game, different
name. I waffled and wavered for about a week before I said to myself,
you know, if I'm being this indecisive about it, then it must not be
for me. While, in my experience, Equinox was not as aggressive as it
sounds like Amway is, I can still identify with the stories I've read
tonight. I am a worrier by nature. I stayed awake at night wondering
if I was stupid for letting this "amazing" opportunity pass me by. My
husband had actually been suckered into going to an "interview" with
this company in the Atlanta area a few months ago when we still lived
there, but he didn't try to convince me one way or the other. He let
me come to my own conclusions, and boy am I soooo glad I made the
decision not to do it! Especially after tonight!
What triggered me into coming online and discovering your site was
that I received a phone call this evening from the guy who had tried
to recruit me. He said he was just calling to let me know that
"Paramont of Savannah" was a scam ("Paramont of Savannah" was the name
Equinox used, I guess, to hide the fact that it was Equinox from
casual observers and the owners of the building from whom they were
leasing their "temporary" office); Equinox was a scam, and there had
been something on 20/20 about all of it. He also muttered something
about the Attorney General, but I didn'tquite catch all of it.
"Paramont" had to clear out that office yesterday. This poor kid was
so angry at Equinox for misleading him, and angry at himself for
getting sucked in, and I know it took a lot of guts to call all the
people he had recruited (or tried to recruit) and tell them about the
situation. If it had been me, I probably would have just crawled into
a hole from the shame. My husband made a beeline for the computer to
find out more. Eventually, he got bored, and I took over. I found a
few tidbits, but nothing as substantial as what is written about
Amway. Reading over a lot of messages on the boards, I found myself
thinking that these postings could have been written about a lot of
different companies. And I was led to your site. (Don't ask how. It's
2:00AM and my brain is starting to get fuzzy. Which means I probably
ought to wrap this up. Fast.)
***** HERE'S THE LAST PARAGRAPH. I PROMISE! ******
*Anyway, before I start getting any more incoherent, I just want to
say that even if you never answer another e-mail regarding Amway
again, you have done a huge number of people an invaluable service,
and I hope this site and all the related sites continue to do so. The
world is a better place because you're in it, and I really admire you
and Ginny for what you have both had the intelligence and courage to
do. Thanks for reinforcing my decision not to get sucked in! (And
thanks for being conscientous enough to go back and check your website
for typos and errors. I was able to read and enjoy without cringing!
That's rare to find in this medium!) Thanks for letting me vent! Good
night/morning, whatever... =)
Yet another satisfied customer,
***
PS: Anyone ever tell you that you look a bit like William Hurt? A
compliment in my book!
PPS: Ginny is cute, too! I hope you two are happy together for a long
time! I just got married about a month ago. My husband and I were
together for seven years before we took the plunge. We're both 25
years old. Just in case you were wondering.
I'M DONE! I SWEAR! GOOD NIGHT!
Subject: (no subject) Thu, 08 Apr 1999 Hiya: Enjoyed your humourous quips and ability to answer to these scoundrels so effectively and intelligently. I came across one reference to Primerica in the Amway saves marriages counter-argument and thought I would introduce myself and my Anti-Primerica website to you and your readers. Its at http://www.bc1.com/users/sjr/pfspage/pfsenquiry.html Perhaps you could direct anyone who has doubts that PFS isn't another MLM with dubious business practices to my page. Anyway, back to reading your site.
Subject: Your Amway story (part 2) Sat, 10 Apr 1999 Weird. The business I am in is nothing like what you describe. I became an Amway distributor in my first year of college (computer science) about 4years ago. The idea of ordering my products by phone and having them shipped to my door appealed to me as my schedule was pretty hectic. (making a little money on the side wouldn't hurt, either) A couple of college friends asked where I got my SA-8, because they were intrigued about the amount of detergent I was using when doing my laundry. In a few months, I was supplying the entire dorm with SA-8. My upline never pressured me to buy books, or tapes and explained that they were completely optional. The seminars held by my upline Emerald were on such topics as: how to place orders, bookkeeping, product specs and information, and new information from Amway. To make a long story short, I'm now a Ruby Direct with 2 Emerald legs (working on the 3rd leg for my Emerald pin) and have a net income of 80 thousand dollars per year...and growing. And the 2 Emeralds (one was a bus driver, the other, a teacher at the college) under me are making a doctor's income. I retired one year after graduating college. Could it be that not all of Amway is like you say?
Subject: Your web site Sat, 10 Apr 1999 Ron, Ron?? Are you disagreed with network marketing in general or just Amway? The reason why I asked because I am also involved in network marketing but it's in the financial services industry. I do financial analysis for peoples and help them with financial planning; providing the same services they would have received if they go to any full service broker/dealer (Merillynch, Prudential, etc..) I don't have a team and making extra incomes solely on personal productions (one or two accounts a month). This is a very highly regulated industry and my point is you don't need a team to make money. An full time average financial planner in the financial services industry makes about six figures on personal production. If you have a team, or agency; that's even better.
Subject: Your Amway story (part 1) Sat, 10 Apr 1999 hello, i am not a Amway rep,but i amost joined. my story is very similar to yours. there new tactic is quixtar. is their new ploy for making money(they call this new quickstar inc, a vitual mall(filled in my opinion with crap)). right now i am 23 and working on 2 degrees(electrical and mechanical engineering), and those reps are like cult members who claim to be christ like. these reps are sweeping through this area of the country(south carolina), like bats out of hell b/c most people have not the access to computers and news report to get info. on this pathetic so called company. so far i have been to 6 of their meetings that contained money hungry people who want the easy way out(work as little as possible and play golf). the one thing i hate the most are misers who down on others who do not have money, amway represents this. right now i am going on a crusade to undermine amway from acquiring their goal of sucking people in under this new name (quixtar). PLEASE, I NEED HELP, MANY OF MY FRIENDS AND OTHER THAT ARE DISCENT PEOPLE ARE BEING PULLED INTO TO THIS SCAM; WHAT I AM REQUESTING IS SOME MORE INFO. FROM YOU I THINK IT WILL HELP.
Subject: the latest pyramid scheme. Mon, 12 Apr 1999 just want to say you've done a *terrific* job on your amway page, (i especially like the stoplight colors) i read the intro, parts 1-3, and the epilogue. i have some related news... at least amway is usually in person... but *these* disgusting folks have managed to infest just about every corner of the internet: http://www.alladvantage.com/ prepare to be sickened. my prediction... they're building a giant spam list. come deadline day for actually letting people download the client ad-viewing, "money making" software, the company disappears and makes their fortune from selling a very effictively gathered, and comprehensive list of suckers. *hurk* k bye.
Subject: Amway deprogramming Mon, 12 Apr 1999 Hello. I just read your story about how you evaded the Amway scourge. Funny stuff. To actually go in and deprogram a person was my intent this evening, but having read your own experience served as a useful substitute. The Amway meeting I went to last night, invited to under false pretense of "How to Make Money on the Internet" lasted for 3 hours and went on and on and on. I'm supposed to meet the guy who invited me again this evening at the airport in Phoenix for a "computer number" to sign up. I was busy downloading pages of anti-amway stuff to give him-- but the airport is at least 45 minutes away and it occurred to me, after reading your page, that I'm not the first person who has had the exciting idea of "going in" to reverse the amway mind-grip on these people. I even fantasized about creating an anti-multi level multi-level organization where I could sponsor other deprogrammers to "normalize" the world on a one-to-one basis, eventually numbering in the millions. Of course, I'd make my money by selling anti-MLM books, videos and tapes! And so would my anti-downline. Of course, I'm joking. Or is it an anti-joke? Thanks for posting your experiences. Amway distributor for 1 year, 1981; Currently holding an anti-MLM stance and trying to come up with the ideal instant anti-amway deprogramming technique when these people approach (among other useless hobbies).
Subject: Finished your Amway story... Tue, 13 Apr 1999 Thanks!! I 'm sure you get a lot of these. I nearly signed up then I realised that perhaps a little research on the net would be prudent, I mean, if it sounds too good to be true, it generally isn't, and that has proved to be the case.If you hadn't put this on the web, for sure they would have another victim. Thanks again. Regards
Subject: Amway :O( Tue, 13 Apr 1999 last month i had this uy come to me and tell me about this busineee(AMWAY) so dumb me I had signed up just for $50 dollars im now reading your dtory and im in the process of trying to get my money back!!! im also in school for computers!!!
Subject: YourAmwaystory(part2) Wed, 14 Apr 1999 great story. I used to wait tables at a restruant that once a month an amway party would come in at 11pm.About 25 of them.tThey were demanding sobs who would tip about 7 dollars on a $100 tab. We all refused to wait on them agian untill th management told the group that a 20% tip would be added on to their bill.The thing that made me mad that they had recruited the vison imparied into there cult.And their leaders would try to get us to join up.The drunks from our bar would walk into there pizza partys and mock them. We did not discourage this behavior.Agian great story very well researched and presented try to get it published
Subject: Your Amway story (part 3) Thu, 15 Apr 1999 many thanks I have a doctor friend who is ensnared by amway I am trying to free him his wife but without success
Subject: Your Amway story (part 3) Wed, 14 Apr 1999 Hi, I'm really interested with your story. I was approached many many time before but they never succeed in signing me in. Just wish to let you know I;m on your side
Subject: your crusade
Wed, 14 Apr 1999
Mr. Glasser,
One day I came accross a link going to your website. Without any idea who
you are, I found your website very interesting.
I enjoyed reading the letter of the month, and I really believed you have
done a good job to protect the failures. It is a very good job, keep it up.
But I really do hope you are not earning anything or doing this as your
monkey business.
I also appreciate your fairness since you post the letters of the critics.
However, at the last portion you made some nasty, childish comments to their
letters. My interest in reading your site dropped like a bomb. You gave me
the impression that you are playing a fool out of yourself. If you do not
admit this, then something is wrong about your brain. This will only show
that everything you write are not dependable and merely out of self
interest.
I hope and pray you can do a favor for yourself. You may turn your website
to something productive and encouraging, like posting a photo of your naked
body or that of your wife. If not, then go get your psychiatrist!
Mr. *****
Philippines
Best regards,
<<...>>
Who, me? Nasty? Childish? Well... YOU'RE a poo-poo
head.
Subject: Your Amway story (part 2) Wed, 14 Apr 1999 great story. I used to wait tables at a restruant that once a month an amway party would come in at 11pm.About 25 of them.tThey were demanding sobs who would tip about 7 dollars on a $100 tab. We all refused to wait on them agian untill th management told the group that a 20% tip would be added on to their bill.The thing that made me mad that they had recruited the vison imparied into there cult.And their leaders would try to get us to join up.The drunks from our bar would walk into there pizza partys and mock them. We did not discourage this behavior.Agian great story very well researched and presented try to get it published
Subject: Your Amway story (part 3) Thu, 15 Apr 1999 many thanks I have a doctor friend who is ensnared by amway I am trying to free him his wife but without success
Subject: Your Amway story (part 2) Thu, 15 Apr 1999 your story is interesting but flawed. I have been involved in amway for 12 months now and make more money part time in amway than i did at the job i used to have. so, it is possible to make a living with amway. i'm sorry your experience was a bad one.
Subject: Ginny's Amway story (part 3) Thu, 15 Apr 1999 Ginny, that was some story. Are you on drugs? Is Jim? Is your up-line? No? I think the best place for you is in an office, behind a desk, where you can get there at 9 go home at 5, go the the Sizzler with your family on Fri. nites, and never, ever get involved with those culty, nasty Amway bogey-men again. You poor thing. How did you survive? To think, 3 million people seduced into joining that cult, cheated out of $ they dont have, and BRAIN-WASHED with those horrible tapes. My advice for you, is lock the doors, close the curtains, take the phone off the hook, take some valuum, turn on Ricki Lake and never give another thought to moving on in your life. And be careful. There are business magazines everywhere, they lurk in every waiting room, going under dark names like Fortune, Success, and Business 2.0. They are full of misleading information about what's going on in the real world , your world Ginny. You were sooo brave to quit Amway. I truly hope no one is after you, to try to brainwash you into joining, you and all those other vigilant souls with similar scary, scary but very sad tales. You and Russel, well, you are really something. Have fun at the water cooler.
Subject: Your Amway story (part 1) Thu, 15 Apr 1999 I have to ask myself how one person could spend so much time on this as you are, you either need a life, or a shrink. Hope your next venture doesnt cause you as much pain as this one seemed to. If you're looking at this as some kind of public service, I think the homeless would benefit from your energy alot more. Find something worthwhile to direct you energy to, cuz this seems so wasteful, all these people nursing there wounds , keeping it alive and out of proportion. People go into business and fail all the time. That's all that's going on here. The corporation seems to be taking all the heat, when you and all these people are ticked at the people who presented the idea to you. Move on man. It's like William Shatner said at a Star Trek convention, " Get a Life People, it's only a show." You've all regurgitated your pain ad nauseum, now quit hanging on to the past, if you stay there, you'll never get well. Maybe I should just send flowers.
Subject: YourAmwaystory(part1) Thu, 15 Apr 1999 your story is interesting. i'm a direct for 6and ahalf years. i'm a dentist as well. you state a lot of truths, but some of them are misleading. to be successful in anything takes alot of effort. amway is no different. one must be focused to excel in all aspects of life. one must associate with like-minded people-we are who we hang around with. one's appearance is important to how one is perceived. these are all universal truths, amway non-withstanding. what i have been taught in my time as an amway distributor is beneficial to me as a dentist or any other field of employment. that /these are a few of the benefits of this business opportunity and the system employed to teach one to succeed here.this is my response -[part 1]
Subject: YourAmwaystory(part2) Fri, 16 Apr 1999 you keep on mentioning amway-what you need to remember-or learn- is that amway corporation has no part in this system of "mind control". it is all the doing of the upline. i have the upmost respect for the amway corporation. they would never put anyone down for keeping their current job and being satisfied. they would never resort to any of the cult-related activities/ suggestions you have mentioned. amway corporation manufactures excellent products at a fair price, and represents hundreds of major manufacturors and their products, and allows an individual to act as a franchisee with the ability to franchise others, a la mcdonald's. please separate your thinking regarding amway corporation and the system of learning promoted by the upline diamond directs. end of part 2 response.........
Subject: YourAmwaystory(part3)
Fri, 16 Apr 1999
i really don't know how you could have learned all this be just going to
meetingsand listeing to tapes for only three weeks. apparently you have
studied the amway opportunity for a longer period of time and in other
mediums. however you have done this, you are probably succeeding in
your mission. it is too bad that people cannot be truthful about this
business. you see, i'm one who HAS been around this for a long
time-eight years. i HAVE made a nice income- over 50K my first year as
a direct. my decisions about this business come from first-hand
knowledge, not just the internet. where there are lies, there is smoke,
and thus, fire. the fire is with the diamonds, who do generate the
majority of their income from the system monies of tapes, books, and
functions.
the wrongs of this are from not telling, OUTRIGHT, that this is the
case. if this was done so, it would right alot of wrongs, with
substantial apologies. many unsuspecting people are being taken
advantage of without any idea of such. they believe that their dreams
will come true with the amway business. unfortunately, we are not shown
the whole story-the system is where the lifestyles are generated. THAT
is the deception that needs to be changed and corrected! doNOT chastise
the amway corporation for this-while they let it get out of control and
become as big if not bigger than them , they do not condone it. they are
a top-flight corporation that deserves a tremendous amount of respect,
and receives it!
i have essentially made the decision to back off of my amway business
until my upline comes clean with the system and tells everyone the
truth. i have a lot to lose , and am willing to lose it to see it made
right.
i have a hard time with people such as yourself who have very little
knowledge and/or experience about a subject, and then discuss it as if
it has been their area of expertise for their whole life. shame on you
for being as much a phony as those directs, emeralds, and diamonds who
deceive as many people as you do. i write these words with all
sincerity.
i am proud to live in a country where we are free to state our opinions
without the fear of censorship or compromise. however, i feel it is our
duty to do in a moral and ethical way.
have a nice day
Subject: My reply to your Amway page
Fri, 16 Apr 1999
Dear Russell,
I read your letter and a large cross section of both pro and con letters
in response. Accept for the "extremists", (those who blindly follow someone
else's rhetoric just to feel powerful) the one thing most of them have in
common is a passion for what they believe in. For that, I applaud you and
your respondents. Passion is what makes life exciting! If, as it is shared
in "Amtalk", everyone got in, the opportunity would not be as good as it is.
I for one, am glad of that.
There are winners and losers in everything (even Amway). The winners
are those go through life looking at its struggles as opportunities. Its
defeats as learning experiences and its joys as blessings. Losers look at
struggles and defeats as but a continuing trend of undeserving circumstances
that life has dealt them. When there is something to joyful about, the loser
only views it as some cruel joke that surely cannot last. Those people who
got in Amway and then "discovered" how horrible it was, probably discovered
more about themselves than they did about Amway. They discovered that they
weren't self-motived, self-confident or shared an entrepenural spirit with
those who have had a positive experience with Amway. That realization can
be shock. A strong personality will react in anger, blame and disgust. A
weak personality will wallow in self-pity.
Those of us who have had a positive experience in Amway, look for others
to share the potential of financial freedom with. People, that with hard
work and a little passion, can do great things for themselves and those
around them! I choose to be a winner! I choose to learn and profit from
circumstance! I choose to be passionate about life! Whatever anyone
decides to do, ask yourself this, 1. Is what your are doing the right thing
or just convenient? 2. Is what you are doing have the potential of
positively impacting your family's future? And 3. Is what you stand for
what you want to be remembered for. Ask yourself that, then act with
PASSION, DRIVE AND INTENSITY! You will surely succeed! The Bible (yes, I'm
Christion) in Revelation, God talks about people being lukewarm a rather
than hot or cold, and because of their lack of passion He would spit them
out of His mouth. Christian or not, don't be lukewarm, Be Passionate and Go
Diamond!
A passionate Amway distributor
Subject: Your Amway page... Fri, 16 Apr 1999 You're an idiot!
I think I've heard that one before.
Subject: My reply to your Amway page Sat, 17 Apr 1999 Hello. I am so glad you have this page. I was not an Amway Distributor, but an Equinox Manager! Boy, do I feel like a dope. I was working out of Atlanta and went to a few too many Basic Building Blocks (BBB). Luckily there was a BBB in Chicago because it gave me a chance to go home to recruit my friends into a "Chance of a Lifetime." Ironically I live in Ada MI, home headquarters of Amway. I could go on about Amway, but my experience is related to Equinox. I was able to see Bill Gouldd 3 times, and he is absolutely mesmerizing! I have been to a lot of different seminars for public relations and have seen many political speeches, but Bill Gouldd is by far the most persuasive, mesmerizing, motivational, etc... speaker I have ever heard. While I was working in Atlanta, they stressed the importance of going to these BBB. The logic they used made sense. They stressed that we paid a lot of money for a college education and that this was the "college" to becoming successful. Well, I was skeptical until I went to my first BBB. It is so persuasive, I signed up and bought $5,000 worth of product and $1,000 worth of tools for my business because I was serious and "successful." Once you go to a BBB, it is over. They already have the answers to every objection you'll hear your loved ones will say to get you out. They are powerfully persuasive. I lived, breathed, ate, slept Equinox of a month. I must admit, I was on an unbelievable high. I was on top of the world. They teach you how to become extremely persuasive. They put you on a pedestal through constant edification. I was able to handle every objection with ease and just after a few BBB. But, in the training center, which I must admit is probably the most thought out and well orchestrated way to get people into the business. My favorite objection I heard; Question: "Is this some kind of cult?" Answer: "Would you want to belong to a wealthy cult or a poor cult?"
Considering that a cult gets its money through its members, I'd **much** rather belong to a poor cult.
Did you know that successful people make fast decisions? I learned
that in Equinox.
Well, my sponsor promised me the world because I was obviously a leader and
he was going to help make a success story out of me. I answered his phones
for 2 weeks, not having a chance to "recruit" on my own. He signed up 1
person under me. My sponsor told me that he had already started a sales
force under me and that I was in charge of 2 managers. Come to find out, I
had 1 person and he only spent $1,000.
I could go on and on about my experience, but I want to leave you with a few
learned lessons, don't try to find a marketing, pr, or sales job in the
newspaper, because most ads that are in those sections are these types of
companies.
In Atlanta, they must have had about 10 ads going a day. We answered phones
from 9 until 12:30, had a presentation from 1:00 until 2, 2:30 and answered
phones again until 6:30 and had another presentation at 7.
Once one of your relatives goes to one of these seminars, it will take an
extremely persuasive person and checking on the internet for a site like
this to save them. I didn't listen to my parents, but my uncle who knew how
to be just as persuasive. Actually, his persuasiveness almost didn't work
because of the 4 weeks straight brainwashing I received. It took actual
testimonials on the internet to help me see straight.
Thanks for having this page
Subject: Amway newest venture:"Quixtar.com" Sat, 17 Apr 1999 I found you story very compelling. After months of pursuit, I finally gave in and met with a fellow who's been calling since "meeting" me while pumping gas a year ago. He knew I was "into" computers (I'm a data analyst and system administrator at a hospital) and thought I'd be excited about this new "opportunity" on "the Net". (Oh, they're so hip!) He showed me a video about Quixtar.com -the "e-commerce" of the new millennium. It was very interesting...and had I not read your story I may have found myself at a meeting next week. I guess it's just a new tool for the same old game. the official site: http://www.countdown9199.com/ some guy who thinks Amway saved his life I guess: http://www.amwayfacts.com/quixtar.htm Have you gotten wind of this? I suppose after 2 years you're probably sick of writing about this. But I'm sure you've saved many folks from a potential mistake. But they seem so happy and content and SINCERE, don't they.? Thanks for the effort you put into your site.
Subject: Your Amway Page Sat, 17 Apr 1999 Just wanted to drop a few comments on your Amway page. For reference I am an Amway distributor. I am an electrical engineer/computer programmer. My wife, the ever-lasting skeptic/psychologist, introduced me to the opportunity. Before I "Got the Kit" I investigated every one of the negative and positive Amway sites on the net, much to the dismay of my upline, who happens to be my two daughters' pediatrician. I told him very clearly that before I get involved with something that I will be advocating family, friends and business associates to join, I have a responsibility to know every bit of information that is available, positive or negative. As you know this is the "curse" of being a scientist (engineer, programmer, philosopher, etc) we cannot do anything without investigating it. One of the major things that I noticed after reading many of the negative and positive "testimonials" on these pages is that much of the negative and/or positive experience being discussed was as a direct result of the people that the subject person had either been approached or sponsored. For example, several positive testimonials that I read said that "even though we haven't made much money at it (Amway) yet we were just happy to be associated with the people that were involved". Obviously this person would have had a completely different outlook after outlaying the $150 and not making any money had their sponsor/uplines been scam artists or schisters. I would be a very rich man indeed had I a dime for every time I have been approached with the plan. The thing that made me take notice this time was the fact that my childrens pediatrician and two of my wifes' gynecologists are in our upline. As for the "tools" business I think that there are those in the business that take grose(sp?) advantage of those that will blindly follow . I personally think that Amway would do themselves a lot of good if they incorporated the tools business into the catalog ordering system, thus giving credit/discounts to everyone in the business for purchases of tapes, books, seminars, etc. For example, I went to one of the rallies a few weeks ago. The information that was presented as far as recruiting, planning, etc was extremely useful for my business. However, I can see where many people could come to the conclusion that the business is a cult. I found myself looking around and wondering, what are these people thinking. But I did the same thing in the last evangelical service I attended. Again, the curse of the scientist strikes again. (I would like to note that this church service did not at all differ from Baptist or Evangelical services I have attended in the past.) I have made a direct effort to not promote this business as anything other than hard work. I have yet to hear anything to the contrary from those upline from me. The really neat thing to me is that my wife and I can both participate in this business equally. I am not writing you to necessarily promote or advocate someone to join, just wanted to interject my 2.5 cents. I would appreciate that my email address and any other personal information I may have provided be kept confidential.
Subject: Finished your Amway story... Sun, 18 Apr 1999 Hi As I was reading your story (and I read the whole thing) , it felt like deja voux. The only difference is that we actually joined (Spent the $150, got the goodies). My conclusion after a while was the same as yours, it is a cult, you are NOT saving any money but spending a lot. Luckily, we didn't sign up for the INA tapes and whatever else, we were only interested in buying stuff cheaper - that was the main reason I also thought ; "what can I lose?" My first doubts started right as I signed my $150 away, a new form for the INA application was presented.... only (can't remenber) so many $'s per month for 6 tapes and a book which you MUST listen to and read for a success ???!!!. Luckily I didn't fall for it (INA) too. Luckily I (we) are also pretty immune to motivational (brainwashing?) tapes and videos about people making millions and spending all their time in Hawaii or wherever,- we were only looking to save money by bying stuff. How innocent we were, getting sucked up into greed. My only saving was that I am a Shopper, I don't just buy things, I shop around, and I have a pretty good memory of prices, even groceries and stuff, but I am not penny wise and pound foolish - I would not drive miles to save a penny, but I just remember prices and therefore know where to shop for what. The turning point was when we priced three products we wanted to buy - a vacuum cleaner, a bread machine and coffee sweetner(!!). I could get all cheaper (the sweetner - half the price) - not even including the shipping charges and promptly decided that it was scam. When presenting my findings to my upline (this was after I signed) - I was told that the end justify the means - I will not get rich if I always check on things, I must just buy the stuff (from Amway) because it is for my own good -- well, talk about waving a red flag in front of a bull..... After a bit of thinking about the whole thing (and a few meetings, nearly attending a weekend thing for +- $300 and numerous visits to our home by our upline and their upline about the finer points .....) and being involved in previous motivational courses with tapes and so forth, I came to the following conclusions : - Whoever thought up the Amway scheme was brilliant (wish I thought about it first, maybe their is room for another "Amway" - makes you think, doesn't it .....) - It has nothing to do about the products - they are just vehicles for selling the motivational materials - that is where the real money lies (I tried unsuccesfully to find out the ratio of products revenue to Motivational materials revenue). You are led to believe that the motivational stuff is essential in setting up your own business selling PRODUCTS, you don't see the $5 a tape price tag and the costs for the meetings etc. All I can say is - It is an absolutely brilliant (no pun intended) scheme - shame on me for falling halfway for it. - Is a cult, a "family" who "helps" each other - the poor people at the bottom of the pyramid are so busy "helping" each other that they can't see they are loosing money - I think the carrot or pot at the end of the rainbow seems too large to let a "little" bit of money lost or a "few" hours per week get into their way. - It's got nothing to do about helping ME, I am just a pawn in the bigger scheme of things, the more money I can be convinced to spend in the believe that the end justify the means, THAT's what it is all about - to make the speakers on the tapes rich, I have yet to meet somebody in Amway who isn't a tape/video maker, who is rich. - The whole operation is practically foolproof, If you don't become rich, If you batlle to get a downline established, you are even more sucked in because, you obviously haven't listened to enough tapes, you are not attending meetings 7 days a week, you haven't attended the Diamond's conference, did you ? - "Well, now you know why you are not "making" it" , and the gullible will stand in line to buy more tapes, more videos, attend more meetings ....... No pain, no gain - obviously. - You want to loose your friends ? - introduce them to Amway as your downline - I can just imagine myself calling my "friend" and asking (telling ?) him - " I see your sales have dropped ?" or "No new downlines this week huh ?" or "I think you must buy some more tapes, it will help you" and knowing full well I am lying through my teeth - O Yes, I have not considered the fact that I would also have been brainwashed into actually believing all I am being told. Well, the above is only part of the story - but the above should suffice. Good Luck to you.
Subject: Your Amway story (part 3) Tue, 20 Apr 1999 Thank You !
Subject: Your Amway page... Wed, 21 Apr 1999 Do you have the address of any Anti-Excel sites. Problems or short comings of the Excel (Telephone Service) Opportunity?
Subject: My reply to your Amway page
Thu, 22 Apr 1999
Hi Russel,
While I can't say that reading your page about Amway did change my mind
into not doing it (common sense already told me so), I nevertheless enjoyed
very much reading your experience and finding out that it has many common
aspects with mine.
I am also involved into the computer business mostly in
hardware/OEM/distribution and already have my own company since 1995. Like
any business it has its good times and bad times but at least they're for
real and not just dreams.
The Amway came in Romania in 1997 (did I mention that I am from
Romania?) but I heard of it only early this year when I was contacted by
this group of dreamers. Likewise, I went to the Internet to find out some
more info about it. I also went to a couple of seminars and a BBS which
definitely made up my mind into not joining this "business" where people
behave strange, to say at least...
Anyway, what I want to point out are some financial issues that should
give a second thought to everyone who is considering this "opportunity".
As taken from the official Away site, their yearly turnover is
7,000,000,000$. While the figure itself is not bad as an absolute value (I
would like to have this turnover with my company, huh ?) we should consider
also that it is generated by 1,800,000 distributors (at least that's what I
found out from the sites I visited, but I find it close to reality because
only in Romania there are approx. 50,000).
Let's assume the network takes 66% of this figure as a gross profit
which is 4,620,000,000$. We will also assume that the network (i.e.. the
distributors) do not have ANY expenses of ANY nature whatsoever (including
overhead costs with tapes, books, meetings and all that stuff).
OK, now lets ask how do we split this money in the network ? I will give
two different examples, both of them imaginary, of course:
the first example is a tree which is organized by the powers of 10
4,620,000,000/1,800,000=2,567$ average per distributor OR
4,620,000,000/180,000=25,667$ per distributor for each primary uplink and
ZERO for the others OR
4,620,000,000/18,000=256,667$ per distributor for the secondary uplink and
ZERO for all downlinks OR
4,620,000,000/1,800=2,566,667$ per distributor for the third uplink and ZERO
for all downlinks (here you can see how may millionaires are in this
business) OR
4,620,000,000/180=25,666,667$ per distributor for the fourth uplink and ZERO
for all downlinks
Of course, this a stupid example which is purely mathematical and unreal but
anyway I think you already know what I mean
Take a closer look at this one, which could be much closer to reality:
20*10,000,000$=200,000,000$ (20 or so people who make 10,000,000$/year or
more, that leaves 4,420,000,000$ profit out of 4,620,000,000$)
1,000*500,000$=500,000,000$ (1000 people which make 500,000$/year, that
leaves 3,920,000,000$)
10,000*70,000$=700,000,000$ (10,000 people who make approx. 70,000$/year,
that leaves 3,220,000,000$)
100,000*20,000$=2,000,000,000$ (100,000 people making 20,000$/year, that
leaves 1,220,000,000$) and OOPS
1,688,980 distributors out of 1,800,000 which "make" the incredible sum of
722$/year..................................
The Amway fans could say, "Oh, you don't know how the system works, the
money splits in the network depending on each person's results". The problem
is that you fans out there only split 4,620,000,000$ for 1,800,000 people
!!! No matter how you split it, the total amount is 4,620,000,000$ and
that's it! Asta la vista, baby...not to take into account the sales dropped
in 1998 by more than 30%!!!
You don't have to be a genius to crunch this numbers, and figure out
that Amway stories are just too good to be true! It's just elementary
arithmetic's, in fact anyone can simulate in Excel the way a medium-sized
network splits the money with Amway rules.
When I was a kid, I had a game on my home computer called "life". The
game is about a cell which grows, develops and dies in simulated real
conditions. I think that all the Amway fans should take a peak at this game
it might be useful...
Personal conclusions:
1. It is (almost) impossible to make any real money with the Amway business
unless you are in the top 0.6% of the pyramid (in my example
(20+1,000+10,000)/1,800,000=0,6%)
2. IF there is any money from this business IT MUST BE from tapes, books and
all that mind-controlling stuff
3. For all you Amway slaves out there.....dream on, you know what I mean !
Thanks for your time and excuse the syntax errors if any (I really am from
Romania)
Subject: My reply to your Amway page Sat, 24 Apr 1999 Dude, I was "prospected" for amway in Jan.1999. But they are now going on a different route.They are using a new name QUIXTAR.The guy really snagged me and told me I WOULD HAVE MY OWN INTERNET BUSINESS.Have you heard of this?I too started searching the net for background info.on amway .It scared the pants off me.Check out their website www.countdown9199.com. They are going to scam alot of people with this concept and make a killing doing it.I dont' have the stomache for an internet business plus a tapes and functions business.They call it high tech meets hi-touch. They are so sleazy. please dont' post my name I AM quitting the business and they feel like jonestown
Subject: Your Amway story (part 3) Sat, 24 Apr 1999 Russell, I just read the end of your "story". You remind me of these guys in grammar school who never quite fit in and were (excuse the word, but for lack of a better word,) nerds. They sought out others like themselves, and when you actually talked to them, they had an elevated sense of themselves, and somehow saw themselves as powerful or cool, and everyone else was out of the loop. Secretely, they wanted to be accepted, but the cute girls ignored them, and the cool boys teased them. (the type that might potentially get fed up and hurt or even kill their schoolmates. Sound familiar?) Around each other, they were full of themselves. However, I always had a soft spot in my heart for nerds because they were usually interesting too, and often, had a good sense of humour. So, I was somewhat entertained by your account of your experience. You don't seem to understand however, that your experience isn't universal. I don't know what Ted or Phil were like, but I gotta tell you, I can't imagine spending three weeks with someone that wasn't interested. This isn't the jungle. We're not hunting for food. Many of us look at this strictly as a marketing business, that's set up so that the more volume goes through your business, the more money you make. It has many partners that are highly respected in the business world as you know, like Levi, Kodak, Coca-Cola and Disney. Are they cults too? Do you know something I don't know? I've been in Amway 3 years and I've never been to a party like you described, and I've certainly never met anyone who carries products in their home to sell to other people? The co. has always shipped to everyones house directly. Are we living in a parallel universe, where Amway was this awful entity that wanted to control you and seize your very soul (sounds paranoid) or the co. I've always been familiar with that has been the exact opposite? Perhaps it depends on the organization you get involved with. I don't know, I just fail to see what purpose all this serves except that you are now getting the attention you never got in school and that this amuses and entertains you. I have also never seen anyone eager to get someone to sign up, because as you know we don't get money for that and if they're not enthusiastic, you have to be on them all the time and noone wants to do that. So it's more important that they get more information until they know it's something they are wanting to participate in and develop.If and when they have enough information, they can sign up for the business. If you don't want to move at that point, that's fine, we work with the people that ask for the help and work with them. Also, when you talked about people always repeating what's on the Amway tapes bla bla bla, they sound like so alike and say the same things, is because basic truths do always sound the same . A quote becomes famouse because of the basic truth it holds that bears repetition. If you read Mark Twain, and heard his words being described as bla bla bla, I would surmise you are an ignorant person. Befor you jump the gun and say I'm comparing Mark Twain to Amway, I'm not. I'm just saying that there are personal truths that are shared by many people, or certain principals of success that everyone has heard many times over, that when repeated , to some people, may sound like, ho, hum, heard it before, what else is new. Well, there is nothing new there, the things that held truth 50 years ago, still hold true today, and if that bores you, that's your problem.That's your own choice, but there are many people who beleive those principals, and this business supports them, and they haven't had your experience or those of your other negative writers. You cannot rail against a multi-billion $ proven pattern of success, because all you have are the weepy-whiny comments of a few people who for any number of reasons couldn't make a go of this. It created too much change in their lives, their would-be sponsor was a creap, those tapes brain-wash you, etc. etc. I bet you could find more things wrong with your job any day of the week, even if you liked it, not the least of which is you (like most Americans) are no longer making enough to live on. The co. on the other hand has over 3 million distributors (how can so many of us be so wrong), partners like GM, MCI and Whirlpool, and a multi-million dollar web site to expand onto. Not to mention 80 countries around the world. I don't know Russel. I see a scale in my mind. It goes up and down. You, and your negative wheepers on one side yelling cult, brain washers, scamers, and on the other scale, everything I just described. I gotta tell ya, I gotta go with global business. Also before I forget, I think I need to clear up a misconception you have about who profits from the tapes. The diamonds do not sell them to you at a profit, because all tools come from internet. They pay what we pay. Check it out. Say they did profit, the information I have received the last 3 years have been worth every penney. They really should have made a profit. See Russell, it's like college. Someone else actually profits from the school books you are required to buy to get an education. However, no one ever complained about who was profiting from the cost. Just that they cost alot. I'm sure you know if you went to college, that it costs alot of money. And they actually don't guarantee you success, can you beleive they can get away with that? But there, you get into major debt for that privalege, and it is a privalege to get an education even if there is no pot of gold at the end. It is it's own reward. At least it should be looked at that way, except that the job market is so brutal out there, there's no time to reflect on any of that. Just do it, get out, and find employment fast.People that are actually succeeding at this business understand that, and they're not crying about what it takes to build a big business. These people are really better off working for others, because they can't see much further than a pay-check. You can't buy a successful franchise for under 500,000$ What do you think the whiners would say about that? Is that an option or would they be crying about how they never see their mates anymore and because they work so much they never see their freinds. It's all perspective Russell. This business really isn't for everyone. It's just that those people, and you, thought it was. Well, good luck with your web site. May you be showered with attention.
Thank you. I will continue holding on to my secret hope that, if I become popular enough, I can hang out with you and maybe be voted prom king.
Subject: Your Amway page... Sun, 25 Apr 1999 Russell, What a ride. Thanks for your time putting the site up. Please add www.countdown9199.com to your pro Amway pages. Also, please add update to show Sidney Schwartz is now being named in a suit against P&G. http://www.amway.com/n-p&gsmear.asp Thanks,
You can read my comments about Quixtar and Sid's involvement with P&G on the frequently asked questions page.
Subject: amway Sun, 25 Apr 1999 I did indeed read your entire Amway story, not because I almost got sucked in, but because I'm fascinated by this entire aspect of human behavior that allows people to get sucked in by such stupid schemes. I had to write you because I admire your desire to help other people, which you proved by trying to confront new recruits in your story, and by setting up this website. I can relate to that desire, which is why I am in law school. Good job.
Subject: finished amway story Sun, 25 Apr 1999 I have my 2nd meeting with a direct on Wednesday. Thanks to your page I can decisively turn her down. I had a good idea going into the first meeting that there was something wrong, but thanks to your info, I have a good grasp on what is really going on. Thank you a thousand times over for writing your experiences.
Subject: Amway Mon, 26 Apr 1999 Well you obviously have some issues to resolve concerning your "almost" involvement with Amway. I joined and stayed for about 1 1/2 years. Amway bothered me. But so does your story. I joined in '92. Unlike you I am still enjoying friendships that I made during that time period. Mainly my upline. Amway's not for everyone. And when I decided that; it took me about 30 minutes to explain my decision to my upline. He got up shook my hand and told me if I ever wanted to come back into the business just to let him know. He or anyone else in my upline has NEVER once said anything to me since then about coming back. AND we go fishing together about once a month since '92. I read in your q&a section about being in with the wrong crowd. That is very possible. All of the people in my area are in Bill Britts org. NOW I do not like Bill Britt personally or professionally though I do admire some of his team members. In my experience the people who come in and have been there for awhile do seem to enjoy it. EVEN though they are not making tons of money. So why discourage something that you were never a part of??? If they are llosing money isn't it their's to lose? You have no clue as to what Amway is all about. Just because you read something or went to a meeting or listened to a tape??!?!?!?!? Give me a break. Like talking to a Navy recruiter and not joining then writing a book on how bad the Navy is. Give me a break. If everyone in this country liked the same stuff and did the same stuff I would move. I didn't like Amway. Money wise I broke even when it was all done and said. BUT a least I joined before I gave someone an opinion on it. Brother you've got a lot to learn about life and hopefully one day you will see you made a major mistake in "educating" people about Amway!
Subject: Your Amway story (part 3)
Tue, 27 Apr 1999
First of all I would like to thank you for your website. I read the whole
thing. It and a few other sites I visited helped make my decision to bail
out before I got sucked in any deeper.
I would never have thought that I could have been "caught" by Amway. I
was at home one night and a friend called me to just talk. While talking he
mentioned a business that he was setting up on the internet. Being a
computer repair technician and student in college in Computer Information
Systems, I was intrigued. He gave me a website to look at. The website
listed how much internet based business had increased and the projections
for it in the next few years. Little did I know this was bait and I was the
fish. I was hooked at this point and didnt even know it!! I called him back
and asked how money could be made on the internet and how to get involved
in this "new company". I was told that it could not be explained on the
phone and we set up a time to meet at my house. Amway was not mentioned
until I had watched a motivational CD on the computer. The graphics were
GREAT and it spoke of all the money that could be made on the internet.
Well heck....I thought I was missing out on something...I WAS ON THE HOOK.
I then was shown some Amway stuff and I questioned why this was Amway stuff
and was assured that this was just a way into the web based business. I
accepted this information at face value because this was a "friend".
Someone I trusted. (I think he so convincing because he actually believes
all the jargon he was spouting). I then ordered the "kit" and in was left
with some tapes and books to read and watch and listen to.(VHS, casette,
and books). I listened to one of the tapes and then watched the video. My
internal alarms started going off...BIG TIME. This was like brainwashing.
The tapes all spouted the same stuff over and over. How rich you can get
and they displayed all the eye candy to show you how you can live!!! Then I
got a call asking me to attend a meeting. Well after listening to the tapes
and asking around, I had a few questions! I gathered my questions and
waited for my next meeting and my kit. The kit came in and I was shown all
the ordering stuff and how much money I could make and save. I then asked
my questions. I got answers to all my questions which I didnt argue about.
I was then asked to produce my list of candidates...that way I could get
started making the BIG money. I had not gotten it ready because my alarms
had been so loud.....I then made an excuse to break the meeting up and was
given some more tapes to listen to. I was also asked to attend a "meeting".
When I said I couldnt make that one I was then asked to produce a calendar
so I could make plans to attend one in the future. I was leaning toward
getting out at this point. My alarms were so loud. I then decided to do
some research and turned to the internet. There was a bunch of AMWAY sites.
Amway was trying to dilute the search by having 100's of bogus sites. I
kept looking until I found the info I was looking for.
I have now called my "friend" and bailed out. I can hardly believe it
but he then tryed to get me to give him a list of names "since I wasnt
interested maybe they would be". It takes alot of gall to do that.
Well to make a short story long I am now out of the loop. Again thanks
for your site and keep it up. Not only might it save the person getting
involved (in this case it was myself) but also the people they would have
gotten involved.
Subject: Finished your Amway story... Wed, 28 Apr 1999 Hi I liked your story very much. I wonder if you heard about Primerica Financial Services , Ihave been invited to meetings and sound very much like Amway rallys any way i will apreciate if you have any info on that subject, or if you know any address in the net related to this mlm. Thanks
Subject: Your Amway Homepage Thu, 29 Apr 1999 Hi, I am a Malaysian Chinese and stumbled into your website that denounces the Amway "miracle". It so happened that I was being recruited to join Amway and as I was skeptical, I decided to surf around for info regarding Amway. I did not expect to see such messages being posted so I am surprised. Anyway thanks a lot for the information for which you must have taken a lot of trouble to create or assemble. It has given me an alternative view to the information I had been provided. Regards.
Subject: hi Fri, 30 Apr 1999 Hi (sorry - couldnt grab your first name - lost the connexion or something) thx for taking the time to write it all out - it made my mind up - you've probably saved me close to 40 or 100 hours of lost time - i guess i o u a couple of thousand bucks then? (make that a rain check or virtual money) warmest regards from a hot cape town Subject: sorry Fri, 30 Apr 1999 okay hi *russell* ;-)
Subject: Your Amway story (part 3) Sat, 1 May 1999 Dear Russell, I think you have made a really good work, getting the world to know about your experience with Amway. I´m a Spaniard who was contacted by Amway by the time of my senior college year. I spent about a month going to uncomfortable events where people tried to convince each other about the excellence of the business theywere involved in, and the importance of achieving the "economic independence" thru networking. For me, it was easy to retire after 4 weeks, I didn´t like the persons I met, and they weren´t as articulated as "Ted" or "Phil". To be honest, I have never been in places where I disliked almost everybody. Some of them could be good individuals, but the "system" made them look greedy and selfish. If you have helped just one of them to go back to a more human state of mind, your web has been fruitful.
Subject: My reply to your Amway page Mon, 3 May 1999 Russell, My brother-in-law has just been hooked and is slowly being reeled in. I first couldn't believe that he was being so gullible but after reading your story, I can see how he could be. He made a subtle pitch to me and my wife but made the mistake of showing the glossy catalogue which had the Amway name on the front. my wife looked at it but I didn't even look. (which made him very indignant) I said nothing because I could see he had it bad and nothing that I could say would change his mind. I have been prospected twice and know full well Amway's curse. I was even targeted by Best Line, another MLM who was found to be a pyramid scheme back in the 1970's. thanks for your story.
Subject: Your Amway page... Mon, 3 May 1999 hey how is it going? well, i was paying $21 a month at metro fitness for about 3 years. they tolled me i was going to get big and be healthy and even get girls, but what a fool i was. all that money and nothing. i did go sometimes, but no muscle on me at all. just like amway. if you don't do it, it doesn't pay of. sorry man life is a bitch. i have been in amway for about 8 months, and my income is about $263 a month. not much but for a guy 19 years old it's O.K. e-mail me in 2 years.
Subject: My reply to your Amway page Mon, 3 May 1999 Hi Yep, i have been approached by a distributor (sic) in connection with Amway. One thing about your page - Amway claim the divorce rate for it's people is about 1% (which this guy told me as well) yet you claim it ruins relationships. I have told this chap that i will let him know by Friday wether i'll accept or not. Funny thing is , i know it is a scam yet i have given it until Friday to answer him. I met this guy once 4 years ago for 3 minutes. He traced me through his brother whom i know a little better. Cheers
Subject: Finished your Amway story New Info!!!!!!!
Tue, 4 May 1999
Russell,
I enjoyed your telling of your experience with Amway. A similar thing
happened to me about 3 years ago, but I was fortunate in that a good friend
of mine was being targeted at the same time, so we were able to stick
together and realize what a bunch of bullshit it all is.
The real reason I write is that I too am a bit of a comp. hack and I was
approached this last week with what I interpreted as legitimate interest in
helping me get an IT business going, under the guise of a new web-based
retail service called Quixtar (www.quixtar.com). Its flashy and success
minded - but all surface fluff that does not answer the hard questions.
Well it took me about 5 seconds to realize that Amway was behind it, and
they are now maneuvering to have a massive presence on the web (selling
memberships to the site, vice getting distributors). The idiots took so
long to get online, but they are really pushing this e-tailing gig.
I was insulted at first, but now I just want to be a thorn in their
ass.
I'm with you man, anyway I can help?
A fan.
Subject: Ginny's Amway story (part 3) Tue, 04 May 1999 hey ginny i listen to the tapes and hear stories like yours; and I've been to those function things and heard simular,but vague stories like yours.
Subject: Your Amway page... Wed, 5 May 1999 Thanks
Subject: Re Your Amway Page...THANK YOU!!!!!! Wed, 5 May 1999 I was web surfing and found your Amway page...It was VERY informative. I am a cancer patient so money is very tight ...I have desperately been in need of of source of income which could help me pay my astronomical medical expenses. I was approached by a rep from a different "Amway type" company. They claimed to be the answer to my problems....they could help me... I could go as far with this company as I desired!!! I could have financial freedom, become RICH with this company...all of my financial problems were over!!!!! I was bombarded with story after story about all the rich people who got that way through this company. All I had to do was join this company and make a list of friends and my "upline" sponser and I would call all these people and I would be on my way to debt free comfortable life. If I wanted to be rich...no problem!!!...the opportunity was there waiting...The big thing with this company is conference calls..They wanted me and my "upline sponsor" to call all the people on my list...They said the key to this working is the "upline sponsor" giving a testimonial during the conference call...The testimonial sells!!! What was I waiting for?? Join Join!! No more bill collectors....no more frantically trying to scrape the money to raise my children...The only thing keeping me from being rich was me..I had but to join....I was so desperate I almost joined... I read your pages and was shocked to find I was hearing the very same tactics being used to hook "marks" like me into being a rep for them....I found your page especially imformative on the reality of the financial aspect of joining a company like this....Believe me..at this point the last thing I need is to go further in debt trying to MAKE money!!!.Thank you...for helping me to NOT make one of the biggest mistakes of my life!!
Subject: Your Amway page... Thu, 6 May 1999 Get bent God Bless
Subject: My reply to your Amway page Sat, 8 May 1999 I really enjoyed your web site. It brought back memories of 20 years ago when I was living in San Diego, when every other neighbor on my block seemed to be selling Amway, My wife and I would be invited to a party only to be pitched Amway. I remember how angry this made me feel. I felt like I was only invited to be sold. Their pitch seriously damaged any relationship we might have had. This happened to us 3 or 4 times (different neighbors each time) over several years. My wife and I joked we were living in Amway (Stepford Wives) Heights. Jump forward 20 years, TODAY a co-worker brought me a video and brochure on "Quixtar". Quixtar is Amway in Internet clothing with a new name. Beginning September 9, 1999, Amway will sell it's products in an Internet mall. But it's the same old Amway. I'm sure there will be a new round of suckers who will sign up to give their money to Amway. Anyway I'm directing my co-worker to your site for an education. I think to many people are believing the hype about people making money from the Internet and don't want to be left behind. I'm sure this is exactly what Amway had in mind. Well I'll say good bye, and thanks for the memories (I think!)
Subject: Finished your Amway story... Sat, 8 May 1999 ScamWay is starting a new scam, another pyramid, here is the web site... http://www.countdown9199.com/english/website/home.asp
Subject: Your Amway story (part 3) Sat, 8 May 1999 IM A PESSIMISTIC AMWAY DISTRIBUTOR WONDERING WHY I GOT INTO THIS IMAGINARY BUISNESS MAKING IMAGINARY MONEY.AND AFTER I READ YOUR WEBSITE ,IM REALLY WONDERING. I LOVED THE STATEMENT THEY MAKE ABOUT "WE'LL PUT SOMEONE IN YOUR BUISNESS FOR YOU!!!!" IVE BEEN DOING THIS THING FOR TWO MONTHS, MADE A 30 PERSON NAMELIST AND NOOOOO PEOPLE.AND WHEN YOU TELL YOUR PROBLEMS TO THEM( IM HAVING A HARD TIME FINDING A JOB) THEYRE REAL SYMPATHETIC WITH "QUIT YOUR MOPING".WHEN YOURE UNEMPLOYED AND HAVE TO FIGHT FOR AN UNEMPLOYMENT CHECK AND FOOD STAMPS THE LAST THING YOU CARE TO HEAR IS"QUIT YOUR MOPING".THERE IS NO TEAM CONCEPT IN AMWAY IN TEXAS.IF YOU DONT BELONG TO THE BUBBA NETWORK,AND I DONT, YOU WONT MAKE IT IN ANYTHING IN THIS PLACE.IM FROM MISSOURI AND THIS AMWAY GOTS ME FEELING AS SAD AND MEAN AS A MISSOURI MULE.ALL I CAN SAY ABOUT AMWAY IS ""SHOW ME".TAPES AND STANDING ORDER DOESNT FEED MY FAMILY.MEETINGS DONT FEED MY FAMILY.MY UPLINE ALMOST LEFT ME STRANDED IN HOUSTON WHEN I MISTAKENLY WENT THERE FOR ONE OF THERE BIG CONFRENCES.WHAT KIND OF FAMILY IS THAT?AS FOR YOUR QUEST TO DISCREDIT AMWAY,POWER TO YOU BRO.IM SICK AND TIRED OF FALSE HOPES,NO MONEY AND IMAGINARY FINANCIALLY FREE DREAMS.I WANT SOMETHING REAL.AND AMWAY IS NOT IT ,I DONT CARE WHAT THOSE DIAMONDS SAY. I CANT GET NO SATISFACTION
Subject: AMWAY,ETC
Sat, 8 May 1999
Thanks for all your hard work. Two "friends" of mine have been
attempting to recrut me for the past 6 months. They exhibit all the
deer-in-the-headlights symptoms that your "Ted" et al exhibited. You should
also knoe\w that the two "cobra" site {"this page & this page"} linked to
your text have gone 404. As for programming mayhaps you should visit Jamie
Zawinski's - author of Mozzilla {the Netscape bowser}. Regards
Subject: feedback Mon, 10 May 1999 Hi there, I found your site very informative. It was refreshing to find something that wasn't -filled- with the standard Amway rhetoric. I'm actually hoping to get some advice if you would... my fiance is always looking for the opportunity that is going to allow him to leave the workforce forever. As you can imagine, he found Amway. It has been a major source of problems for us. At first mention of it, I went looking for info on sites just like yours. When I mention anything from them to Jeff, I'm labelled a naysayer who obviously doesn't truly want success. I'm a successful TV producer in Chicago, yet I'm apparently not doing well enough for him. I like my job and see no reason to pursue Amway with him, but listened to a tape and went to a meeting to show him I want to find out more about it. Everything I heard and saw in their materials reaffirms my belief it is a massive pyramid scheme! He wants me to start buying things from their catalogs. Yet, when I look at their prices, I can get absolutely -everything- cheaper at Target or Wal-Mart(not to mention shipping and handling).When I point the inflated prices out to him, he says it isn't about bargain shopping anymore, but building a "business". I've tried to explain to him, some people simply -like- to get out and do their shopping. It's a social thing. I won't go on any further, except to ask, "How do you help an Amway 'convert' see what the organization truly is?" Will he realize it when he's lost enough money??? HELP
Subject: Your Amway page... Thu, 13 May 1999 Russell, I have just finished reading your story. My congratulation on your insight. It sounds like a operation like the one I have been introduced to: Interactive Distribution Development Have you heard of it? Have a look at www.interbiz.ca or www.quixtar.com for more info. I would appreciate your feedback on the subject. Best of luck on your computer programming career.
Subject: Your Amway story (part 3) Thu, 13 May 1999 Exceelent excelelnt excellent, that was the best and most funiiest true story i have heard i can realte yo all of that and when i have some time ill tell you my story too i livie in canada, and i want to thankyou for putting your web page up, it has saved me alot of time and money you rock dude!!!!!! keep it up and updated youll hear from me soon with my story
Subject: Amway Thu, 13 May 1999 Russell, Having just been "adopted" into the "family", I am of the opinion that Amway is very much designed to electrify one's inner senses in thinking u can achieve the ultimate goal, at a cost, both socially and financially! I found your article both informative and thought provoking... well done. I certainly share many of your thoughts on Amway's cult and held many of your beliefs to be consistent with my findings so far. You may be aware there is a "new" Amway emerging (shades of the old), with the recent announcement of e-commerce and one-stop shopping via businesses affiliated to Amway. The basic concept is still the same but encompasses a much wider range of services and products to purchase from the Web "Mall". I am the sort of person that needs to see a return on my investment and am waiting for the future unveiling of "ebiz.com" (refer to web site www.countdown9199.com) . My Sponsor and Direct do have a vision of making money thru the power of duplication (ie development of a network infrastructure), but cannot (or will not) part specific information about this new service. There is a big push in New Zealand to hire Independant Business Owner's in readiness for the "big bang" where things are said to take off at an unparalled pace and should provide some kind of acceleration to becoming "Direct". Anyway, Amway is not going to rule my life, thank u very much. If I see any financial advantage in the future, I will certainly investigate and research my buying options as others should do. After all, we are always looking for a good deal, value for money. There are some basic cleaning products that do save some pennies, but it would take many, many duplication of sales to achieve and maintain even a small profit. The Amway stigma lives on! Dream on?? Thank u for taking the time to read this, if u need any info on the NZ scene, pls send me an email. Good luck in your ventures. Yours sincerely
Subject: Finished your Amway story... Thu, 13 May 1999 Appreciate your insightful article. It's the patronizing approach followed by the "mystery business" sessions that really get to me. Being very successful in sales, I get approached almost monthly as "the type" they are looking for - I can't tell you how many hours I have spent thinking I was going to receive useful information from someone who had a new "idea" or "product" - only to end up awash in the usual propaganda. Now, about 10 seconds into any "opportunity speech" I simply ask, "Is this Amway?" If a person feels threatened by such a simple question, I surely have grounds to doubt their "interest" in me. I know this: I would have been a part of Amway a long time ago (the late 60s) if the people who approached me would have not been deceptive, but honest and forthright about what they were proposing, and who they were representing. As a sales professional, I know that the establishment of trust is critical in forging long-term relationships with a client. A company that encourages (or by default does not discourage) such deceptive tactics at first contact with a "prospect" deserves to be criticized, cross-examined, and approached with suspicion.. And I would surely not want to violate the trust and confidence of anyone in my "circle of influence" by giving their names to the hounds that use these dubious tools to "recruit" new members. Maybe not quite a "cult", Amway is definitely a way of life, and I find someone who is involved with them rarely able to talk about anything else. It is possible for an Amway person to boomerang anything you or he says or does directly back to Amway. You got off easy - you were physically separated from your recruiters. Just imagine being proselytized 8 to 10 hours a day at work! You like their Mercedes - Amway. How was your vacation - Amway business vacation, tax write-off. How are the kids - pay them to reduce taxes. Golf game - more time for golf - Amway. Social life - rub shoulders with millionaires - downline. Spiritual life - can witness to people more readily because they "respect" me. Ad nauseum. Poor Jesus didn't have a chance, he wasn't even a "Direct" - "The foxes have holes, the birds of the air have nests, but the Son of Man doesn't have a place to lay his head". So that's MY experience. I do find, though, that most Amway people I know are regular, good folk, and know when to back off. "Overzealous" is how I would best describe them. Unless involuntary conscription begins, I am not worried. It's simply "Shields up. I am not ready to be assimilated into the hive".
Subject: Fri, 14 May 1999 Interesting perspective on Amway I wish I was as passionate building the business as you are about not building it. Regards "Amway" Distributor New Zealand Fri, 14 May 1999 It's probably just as well that you're not. :)
Subject: Amway Arguments Sat, 15 May 1999 Your page has a lot of good refutations of various arguments for MLM's (and in fact was one of the reasons I've changed my tone on my own page dealing with MLM's from one of cautious "be careful" optimism to one of fairly strong pessimism with so many warning signs that there's probably almost no MLM that can pass all of them), but here's one argument I think you ought to address -- namely, explaining the difference between the "downline earnings" of someone in an MLM and a supervisor in a regular business earning money as the result of the hard work of his/her subordinates -- I can imagine someone arguing that these are morally equivalent (especially if they want to come at it from the angle of Marxian theories of "stolen wealth"). Also, you might want to get into the distinction between MLM's and reputable associate programs like that of Amazon.com and Barnes&Noble, which pay people to promote their product but *don't* pay any percentages based on the sales of people you refer to their sales program. Especially now that more and more reputable businesses are forming associate or affiliate programs with individual Webmasters, I'm sure the scamsters are likely to try to blur the distinction -- especially now that there are more and more borderline programs that require no startup fee, at most a few minutes setting up links on one's Website, but still promise referral fees and downline/residual incomes. Subject: Re: Amway Arguments Wed, 02 Jun 1999 > here's one argument I > think you ought to address -- namely, explaining the difference between > the "downline earnings" of someone in an MLM and a supervisor in a > regular business earning money as the result of the hard work of his/her > subordinates I believe I did do the equivalent of that... see the argument page. > Also, you might want to get into the distinction between MLM's and > reputable associate programs like that of Amazon.com and Barnes&Noble The difference is that Amazon.com doesn't promise that you can open your own bookstore. Amazon would be crazy to create competition for itself in that way. Amazon pays you to advertise THEIR business, they don't claim you will get rich that way.
Subject: Your Amway story (part 2)
Sat, 15 May 1999
Dear Russel:
I don't have any Amway story to you. I am so impressed that you are
so against Amway. Amway is just one of the businesses, like any other
bussiness in the world. If the business makes profit, it is a good
business, no matter how small you own. If the business losses money, it
is a bad business, no matter how big it is.
Somehow, MLM is the trend. It does not matter if you like or not.
People don't make money in MLM. It does not mean MLM is not good. (How
do you think people losses money in traditional business?) If you can
give them equal thinking, you will not feel bad about Amway.
Frankly, there are lots of MLM businesses today, for instance:
1. Nutrition - IDN, Pharmanex, USNAN, Melaleuca, Legacy (Run by Dupont),
...
2. Legal - Pre-Paid Legal
3. Jewelry - JewlWay
4. Financial - Primerica (Run by Citigroup)
5. E-comm - Big Planet
6. Travel - TraelMax
7. Telecom - Excel
8. Kitchen - Watkins
9. Satellite - The Peoples Network
10. Car Care - Enviro-Tech
I don't know how you think of this. If you ask me, I would say this is
the trend. So this is what I said before "Amway is just one of the
businesses." There is nothing new now. But, while the retail sales is 3
to 5 % growth around the world, the MLM sales is growing with the rate
of 15%. You just can not ignore them. If you really hate MLM, you can
easily find a job in your computer industry. No one will blame you.
Moreover, if you are as smart as Bill Gates, Dell, Chmabers, you have
nothing to worry about. You can build your own empire, can't you? The
ugly thing is that they also buy books and tapes in order to motivate
themselves. Again, there is nothing new here. Or you don't any of them.
One bible is just fine for you.
Finally, there is book digest. I feel you may want to read it. Please
see the attach file. If you have any comment, please feel free let me
know.
Subject: your amway site Sun, 16 May 1999 just read some parts of your amway site. thanks. i need the moral support. I have had an aquantiance trying to bring me into his "business" and i am extremely skeptical and resistant. my fiance does not share my skepticism however, and thinks this may be a good thing to get into. what they are pushing is some new "sister" company of amway called "quickstar". ( you buy the products from an internet site instead of a catalog,... big difference, eh?) I have read a lot of the arguments and tactics on your site and several others, and they were used the same way by the upline person who presented it to us. My crap detector is going off big time. my friend has done amway before (about 10 years ago) and he is convinced that he got out of it too soon, and would be well off today if he had just stuck with it. well, anyway, thanks for some good information.
Subject: Response to Amway story Sun, 16 May 1999 Russel: I have just finished reading your Amway story...as well as Ginny's. Wow, well-written and enlightening. With that in mind I'd like your opinion on an opportunity that has recently come my way. I am a working professional making a good living. Never have had any interest in selling Amway or using the products. A colleague at work has asked me to get involved with the Quixstar Mall that will go live on the internet as of 9-1-99. Sounds like a great idea, and I wouldn't mind investing, but the investment is done through Amway. Your return comes through purchases made by the people who you sign up, much like your "line". I've been asked to a couple of meetings but haven't gone at this point. After reading your article, I'm less interested than ever and wary. I am not and have never been a big risk taker. I have a certain fascination and also a healthy fear for cults and their behaviors. Is this opportunity that I have been offered a good one or is it just Amway masquerading in sheep's clothing? Anxiously awaiting your reply. Thanks in advance
Subject: New Amway recruit Sun, 16 May 1999 i would like thank you for sharing your experience with amway. i, too have been drawn in by the consistent spouting of an amway "sponser" about how rich i will be in six months if i just go to meetings and meet all the incredibly nice, helpful and sincere people who are rich and succesful and willing to show me how they did it. i wont explain my entire experience with amway but i will say this, i am currently locked in to meeting with several "directs" i don't want to just not show up to these meetings because my "sponser" knows where i live and work. yet, at the same i am filled with anger and frustration that i have been manipulated and i want do something to show them. thank you again for sharing what you know. i am going to try to come out of this with some notion of dignity. can you suggest a way to do that?
Subject: Your Amway page... Mon, 17 May 1999 Since when are distributors in Amway discouraged from selling to ppl outside of Amway? According to all the research I've done, anyone can buy whatever the corporation has to offer and the distributor can either sell it to that person at the distributor cost or at retail...you better check your facts a little better next time! Also, where does the money come from....out of every $1 that goes to Amway, $0.67 is paid out to distributors in the form of income and bonuses.
Subject: Amway Argument Mon, 17 May 1999 Just a couple of questions. I hope you have the courage to print these. 1. What makes your opinion more valuable than anyone else's? 2. Is this the best use of your time? Thanks Subject: Re: Amway Argument Mon, 17 May 1999 > Just a couple of questions. I hope you have the courage to print these. > 1. What makes your opinion more valuable than anyone else's? Nothing. My opinion is precisely as good as anyone else's, neither more nor less. > 2. Is this the best use of your time? Yes. > Thanks You're quite welcome, I'm sure.
Subject: Your Amway page... Tue, 18 May 1999 Russell, There is a new service coming up called Quixtar is this the same as Amway? Ive got a few friends trying to get me involved. At first glance it looks like some type of pyramid scam. What are your thoughts?
Subject: what about Quixtar ? Tue, 18 May 1999 I read your stories about amway and agree with you, the big con is in full force. I was just invited to a meeting about Quixtar, but before I go I need to know what you know about that business. Is it just another amway front organization? Please email me asap thanks
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