 |
Page 40 |
|
|
Page 40 |
|
Subject: finished your amway story...
Fri, 18 Jun 1999
Russell,
I must be one of the fanatics!!! Very entertaining, and scary. A
friend
of mine has just signed up with "Quixtar"--It's not the same as AMWAY, she
tells me. It has been less than a week since she has been involved and I
see many of the mind-games being used. They were supposed to give me tapes
that I thought were explaining the Quixtar opportunity and it was all
motivational get-rich talk. VERY Motivational, but no facts about Amway or
Quixtar (which after doing my research on the internet, I find that they
are the same). It is ironic that "Phil" said you'll never reach anyone on
the web and here they are two (or three?) years later launching
Quixtar!!!!!
Hi-Hooo Silver!!!!!!! Thanks Lone Ranger!!
Subject: Your Amway page... Sat, 19 Jun 1999 soooooaaaaaap moonies ...............................how to turn your friends and relatives into a valuable source of income ........... amway spamway ...........................
Subject: Amway Sun, 20 Jun 1999 I've been doing some research on the whole Amway thing and came across your web page. Unfortunately, I couldn't access the pages on how the money was made or distributed and was wondering if you could send me that info. Out of curiosity, are you aware that Amway is starting some sort of virtual mall?
Subject: Amway / Quixtar Mon, 21 Jun 1999 Hey Russell, Last Friday night an old friend called out of the blue and asked me if I would like to be a part of a new online business. I can say that I was led to believe that I was going to be contracted to do some design work on the soon-to-be-site. We met for dinner, as I waited, he arrived with two gentlemen. Though at first I thought nothing of it, I quickly realized that my services as a webmaster/designer were not going to be needed. Being a nice person, I stuck around. They began to describe to me something that was just too good to be true, I could be making hundreds of thousands in just one year....yeah right. Anyway, they continued with their pitch. It turns out they were trying to get me to invest in what will be the worlds biggest virtual mall. The cost? Only 180 dollars...to start. That's when I really lost it, I've bought stock for more than that. Anyway, this whole Quixtar thing, that's the name of the venture by the way, I have never heard of it. So I started to do some searching. They have registered the name, in just about all the flavors, but the site is not up, not even a splash page. Not to mention that all the IBO sites look like they were created by children. There is just nothing there. I decided to take it a step further, I paid a visit to the FTC and although I could not find anything under Quixtar, I did find some interesting docs on Amway...the parent company behind this. It seems they like to exaggerate what a new member can earn in a year. In short, the FTC and your site have helped me develop a clearer understanding of the workings behind amway. Thanks
Subject: Your Home Page Mon, 21 Jun 1999 Found my way their looking for the truth, the inside info, the good oil, fair dinkum insights on Amway. I intend to print off all the documents & present them to my wife before she gets well & truly sucked in. I looked at it myself some 15 years ago and did the 10**10 analysis myself and decided it was not viable business for me . The business that it relied on hard working devotees, clones & serfs for it work for the top 5% in the paramid. It was full of hype and bull shit. Any way I decided to get into real estate investment and over time I accumulated more wealth for less than 10% of total work effort working as a professional Chemical Engineer in the oil industry. Any way you certainly don't make money working for big corporation.....go out and do your own thing and enjoy yourself. Good luck in your future endeavours Regards PS Can I trust your little programs......I don't have any virus protection & don't down load executionable files from unknown sources
Subject: Your Amway page... Mon, 21 Jun 1999 Hi Russell, is it possible to send me your Anti-Amway pages zipped, so that I can read them offline? This would be great. The reason, why I'm so interessted in this stuff is, that some friends of mine introduced us (me and my wife) to amway and my wife has signed the first contract... So now I want to find out, what's good or bad at Amway... Thanks a lot in advance. Best regards
Subject: MLM's new avatar in India Mon, 21 Jun 1999 Dear Mr. Lasser, (I hope that's the correct name?) Kudos on your great "FAQ" on MLM. i'm a chemical engineer (and intend to remain one, despite all efforts of MLM companies to convince me otherwise) in India, where we have a MLM company called Quantum International, and, let me admit, i am a one of its distributers. Before i joined the network, i did use some mathematical analyses and proved just what you have described, that is: 1. MLM networks are most certain to earn profits for the Corporates (manufacturers and the MLM compnay) involved, and not necessarily to its distributers 2. In about 2-3 years time, they will reach saturation, given the fact that more than 40% of India's 900 million people are below the poverty line. 3. When the network, does hit The Wall, it may lead to a catastrophic backlash where the network may shrink dramatically, or oscillate. However, don't you think that in the short run, before the saturation, it is a good short-term income source. Granted that it doesn't seem to be a terribly ethical thing to do. But, let's say that i make about 50,000 rupees (which will fetch me a PC) in about a years time, isn't it good enough. And once the money stops, i just drop out. It is at least as ethical as Amway or any other MLM is, right? Pl. mail me
Subject: Finished your Amway story... Mon, 21 Jun 1999 This is my first day on the internet and I am reading about Amway. That says a lot doesn't it. Anyway, just wanted to say great story and I am glad I didn't get mixed up in this stuff. I wasn't close to joining because I found the people at the meetings to be real snobs. They were something out of the Stepford Wives. They made me feel stupid and they are not the kind of people I want to hang out with. Thanks again for your valuable info on the world of Amway.
Subject: Some will, I won't, SO WHAT?? Mon, 21 Jun 1999 Dear Ron, I absolutely adore your webpage.
(but not enough to get my name right)
I was an Amway MEMBER (so that means whatever I say is valid, but I am also a fellow LOSER. Fun!) for about oh, 2 days. All of these people who write such angry letters crack me up. If you were wrong then why are they so upset? Calling people names obviously makes them SO much more mature than you or I. We forgot the dream! I'll keep things short and sweet...I used to think that the saddest thing I'd ever see was a "BIG TIME" Amway leader (were they Emeralds? I'm not sure) in their big fancy dream house in the hills still having to do demonstrations. "A man with "Dri-Fab" in his pocket...it can hold water! Simply AMAZING!" But I realized soon after that the worst thing I'd ever have to see in my life was my wonderful sister, living in a one bedroom apartment with her three kids, trying to scrape together enough change to pay for gas to do a product pickup 50 miles away. To all the people who think that Amway makes people happy, and that those of us who are naysayers had a bad experience, I think it's time for a major reality check. What happens when you're sixty five and you want to retire? Maybe you don't WANT to keep showing people the incredible uses for LOC in your Diamond shaped kitchen? Forget it. Once you're in, there's no getting out. Think about it. Thanks again for a great page! Fellow "LOSER",
Subject: Thanks for the info on Amway. Mon, 21 Jun 1999 Hey buddy, I have just became a millionaire in the AMWAY BUSINESS after working only five years, while you probably spent five years making this terrible and the graphics are worthless also, web site, but that is ok, I will probably be supporting you on health care with my interest, but see you later, oh by the way GET A LIFE
Subject: My reply to your Amway page Tue, 22 Jun 1999 My husbands parents have just been sucked into the Amway thing and they tried to get us in too. My husband and I are "Tightwads" who where offended by the video our parents showed us. My husband is in business for himself for 12 yrs and is doing well enough for me to stay home with our children. Not the message the tape emitted. I just couldn't figure it out how someone could make money buying expensive products and paying for the shipping etc it didn't add up but now though sites like yours I've realized it's not the end products that add up to the "income" they refer to but the selling of "materials" needed to keep you going. Thank you for the information.
Subject: Your Amway page...
Tue, 22 Jun 1999
Mr. Glasser,
God bless and have a nice day.
Subject: Your Amway page... Tue, 22 Jun 1999 HOW CAN I BE A AMWAY'S DISTRIBUTOR? THANKS!
Subject: Your Amway story (part 2) Wed, 23 Jun 1999 Thank you I am 21 years old and I consider my self to be intelligent I have just been promoted to a management position, and believe it or not I love my job and enjoyed the challenge it offers. The scary thing is how quickly they had me thinking I hated my job and how quickly they made me doubt my direction in life. Thanks for having this page there for me to find. I was confused and unsure of what I should do. I am lucky that I have family who support me and allow me to form my own opinion and didn't push me into making quick choices and allowed me to talk to them about it even thought they hated the idea from the start. I had many questions and feelings that were answered and confirmed when I read your site. I am, like your self, lucky that I escaped the Amway web. I was very happy until they came along and started telling me that I didn't enjoy my job that I can live life easy etc. I am sure I need not tell you how they confuse and interrupt your life. Well thanks again I am glad I found your site before it was to late. I just hope that others read and research like I did before they spend all there time and money on something that will not help them in life. Please write back if you have time it would be great to hear how things are going for you now. Thanks again
Subject: Ginny Wed, 23 Jun 1999 I am just glad that I was able to read your story before I had a tragic one of my own. I was very close to becoming a member and was saved by reading this site. I can only say thank you thank you thank you and that doesn't scratch the surface:)
Several months ago I ran into a discussion about Amway on the message boards of my favorite financial site, The Motley Fool. When I noticed a rehash of a silly "tape" argument that I'd heard before, I decided to reply. This is me:
Oh goody, an Amway enthusiast spouting canned arguments on TMF. Just what we need.
<<Amway has always worked for those who worked it. Microsoft has produce 3300 millionares,
Amway 2200, and Drycleaning over 1100.(resource I forget, look it up).>>
Let's see: Microsoft has 22,000 employees world-wide, so that makes 3300/22,000 = 15% of them becoming
millionaires.
By their own statements, Amway has over 3 million distributors world-wide, and that makes 2200/3,000,000 =
0.073%.
By my estimation, this means that the millionaire opportunities are 204 times better for an MS employee than a
distributor.
By some accounts (notably "The Millionaire Next Door" by Thomas J. Stanley), about 3% of the general population
are millionaires. This means your overall chances of striking it rich are only 41 times better if you stay out of Amway
than if you join. This is not quite as good as signing on at Microsoft, but still an improvement.
Somebody then emailed this reply:
Subject: Re: The Death of Amway >Amway 2200, and Drycleaning over 1100.(resource I >forget, look it up).>> > > Let's see: Microsoft has 22,000 employees world-wide, >so that makes 3300/22,000 = 15% of > them becoming millionaires. > > By their own statements, Amway has over 3 million >distributors world-wide, and that makes > 2200/3,000,000 = 0.073%. Actually, the percentage is better than you think. Well over 80% of the individuals that purchase through the A-Corp distribution system have no intentions of making any sizable income. Not everyone's goal is to become a "millionaire". Many people are involved simply to make a little extra money to be used to clear previous debt, allow the spouse to stay home and take care of the children, or to be used as a disposable income. The FTC has checked A-Corp thoroughly with a microscope, and the numbers were true. If you're skeptical about how the business works (which is completely understandable), there's an information pamphlet that A-Corp distributes which was researched by the FTC, check it out.
To which I answered:
Oh, bull. You are trying to say that Amway has a great success rate because most of its distributors don't WANT to
become rich. By the same token, I might as well say that most Microsoft employees don't want to be millionaires
either, meaning that all of them have 100% job satisfaction.
That aside, your statement was a complete departure from the original post, which was pointing out that Amway has
generated a large number of millionaires. What this post called to attention instead, is that Amway, which (A) has
several orders of magnitude MORE distributors than MS has employees, (B) also has produced significantly
FEWER people who make it to millionaire status. Not much of an endorsement.
But as for your change of subject, talking instead about people who want to make a normal living off of Amway,
how does this sound to you? The average income of a distributor is $88 per month, working out to a grand total of
just over $1000 per year. Now, do you think the average MICROSOFT employee is doing less than $20,000 a
year? Plus, don't forget that that "average" figure INCLUDES the small number of millionaires who drag the figures
up, while the majority make less money or even lose money.
<<The FTC has checked A-Corp thoroughly with a microscope, and the numbers were true. If you're skeptical about how the
business works (which is completely understandable), there's an information pamphlet that A-Corp distributes which was researched by the FTC, check it out.>>
What the FTC did in 1979, 20 years ago, hardly qualifies as "thoroughly with a microscope." Nor does it qualify as
passing with flying colors. What they did was order a cease and desist order. They required Amway to stop
misrepresenting potential income. This thread is living proof that they didn't. Basically in the FTC Amway managed
to avoid the label of "illegal pyramid" because they claimed that they follow the "ten-customer" rule, stating that each
distributor must have ten non-distributor customers in order to receive their bonuses. Ask your friendly
neighborhood distributor whether they actually do stick to that... it should quickly become clear that this is a sham as well.
You can access this document at
http://www.mlmlaw.com/library/cases/mlm/ftc/amway.htm
In any case, it was not my intention to argue whether Amway runs a legitimate business or not, or whether it should be
outlawed. All I'm saying is, people who want to achieve any kind of income level, whether it's "barely scraping by",
"making an average income", or "getting filthy rich"... these people would all find better success playing the
numbers on a good job, or investing Foolishly.
I then received an email-only response, which the guy apparently decided wasn't fit to post on the message board. Since the message was more or less content-free, I elected not to continue the conversation.
Subject: Re: The Motley Fool Message Boards - Reply to Your Message Fri, 25 Jun 1999 > Oh, bull. You are trying to say that Amway has a great success rate > because most of its distributors don't WANT to become rich. If the distributors weren't getting from the business what they wanted, don't you think they would've quit? I've run across many distributors who only wish to purchase through the business and have no intention of sponsoring and no intention of selling. The business is successful due partially to the efforts of many talented people. > But as for your change of subject, talking instead about people who want > to make a normal living off of Amway, how does this sound to you? The > average income of a distributor is $88 per month, working out to a grand > total of just over $1000 per year. Now, do you think the average > MICROSOFT employee is doing less than $20,000 a year? I don't work for MSFT, so I lack first hand knowledge. You're probably right that the employees are making more that 20K/yr. At least you've read the A-Corp/FTC pamphlet. Every distributor is supposed to know that the average monthly income of a distributor is $88, that information is supposed to be presented to them before they even sign up as a distributor, but alas not all A-Corp distributors know how to build the business. > In any case, it was not my intention to argue whether Amway runs a > legitimate business or not, or whether it should be outlawed. All I'm > saying is, people who want to achieve any kind of income level, whether > it's "barely scraping by", "making an average income", or "getting filthy > rich"... these people would all find better success playing the numbers on > a good job, or investing Foolishly. After reading your story about previous dealings with A-Corp, I can't blame you for having a grudge. If I was approached and dealt with the same way you were, then I would be very pissed as well. I know there's nothing I can do to change the past and save you from that horrible experience. From your story it's obvious they weren't very familiar with how the business works themselves, just proves that it doesn't take a genius to create a spare income of 35-50,000 a year. Please accept my apology for their tasteless approach and lack of professionalism, I'm sorry.
Subject: No Subject Fri, 25 Jun 1999 I briefly read your site. I am very interested in this Amway issue due to the fact that my brother is so wrapped up in it and has greatly affected/changed is attitude (negatively) towards the rest of the family. Let me give you more info....I am the eldest of 3. I am 35, my brother is 32 and sister 24. My parents and sister live in Orlando. My family are all christians and dad is a pastor. My brother is married with 2 kids and lives in VA. I live in san diego. Anyway, my brother and sisterinlaw got involved with Amway about 3-4 years ago now. I warned him.....well, he took that as trying to "steal" his dream later on. I've slowly been losing my brother and friend as well as my parents losing a son. I really didnt think it was amyway but after a recent attitude I am more convinced that it has to be. He treats my parents with disrespect....but in a "christian" way...stating that they have a spirit of jealousy....and that he "rebukes" them. My parents and I are convinced that he needs help but that would need to come from an outside source and we have no idea of how to go about it. This really sucks. Whats even worse is that my brother is being very restrictive with his kids seeing my parents (devastating my mom)....so, as you can see, this is of great concern. Any info or direction you can provide is greatly appreciated!! Thanks again
Subject: Finished your Amway story... Sat, 26 Jun 1999 I think what you did was great. It's nice to know that some people do care about others. I was recently aproched by a couple of friends who had joined a couple of months ago, and alot of the stuff in your story is true, mainly how the business takes over the life style of those involved. Befor my friends joined they were fun and liked to do things and meet people. Now they only take to me and my wife about their business and how well they will be off in the future. Granted there are success stories but at what cost. I would hate to meet people and see a potential downline then a friendship. I told one of these Amway junkies once, "Money doesn't buy happiness." And she promtly replied, "Yeah, but it buys every thing else". Personally I'd rather be happy and free then rich and a zombie. Thanks!
Subject: Your Amway page... Sat, 26 Jun 1999 I would like a copy of that 5 page essay you wrote and a site where I can get striaght facts on the workings of the amway corp. I have some friends to sway, I fear for their future.
Subject: Re: Your Amway page... Sun, 27 Jun 1999 I don't know if this essay will do you any good. It was written in an emotional state and it may not be as good as the rest of the web page. I suspect the web page as a whole makes better reading. But I do still have it, it's in Microsoft Word format, so I'll send it along as an attachment to this letter. If you can't read it on your computer, let me know. In any case, feel free to change it in any way you want to suit your needs. If it's any good (I haven't read it in a long time) maybe I'll consider turning it into HTML so I can put it on the web page...
Subject: Your Amway story (part 2) Sun, 27 Jun 1999 I am in Nikken. I do not know if you ever heard of them. I never was in a mlm until I joined Nikken. I found your web site so right on. It is sad what goes on in Amway, I agree with everything you said. I have ex amway people in my downline and they thank me everyday for telling them to leave amway. I did tell them to leave not because of money in Nikken but for the fact that amway is a cult and I told them it is not worth losing friends over it. Any way I feel that the way I was trained in Nikken is excellent so far. We do not tell people to quit their jobs, we do not mix religion into anything, we do not tell people they will become millionaires either. But what I feel is that an average person can make in Nikken 80,000 to 150,000 a year after 2 to 4 years of working at it 10 hours a week, no guarantee of course. I fell when you start guaranteeing things it is a lie and how am I supposed to know what's going to be? I am not g -o -- d! Do you have any info on Nikken? Unless I am crazy I think Nikken is a great company that does really help everyone that wants to do it. Also the funny thing is you did not mention this on your web site, but look at a amway magazine......maybe there are 12 to 20 people in it a month making the first rank which is an average of 1900 a month where in Nikken an average of 600 people and making 1800 a month at that position called silver. Also Amway is suing us because we are suing them! Amway is claiming we took their patented design in their magnets! Nikken has been around for 25 years with patented products and amway comes along with junk magnets May 1, and claims we stole..... Usually the offender would be the new company not a company that has been around with the same product for 25 years! Proctor and gamble is suing amway too! It goes on and on. I think amway will be out of business in 5 years. What do you think? I have great info which you can put on your website. Let me know if you want it. One article was in USA today on May 11 saying that amway lost a few billion in sales and their magnets were not a hit! It also says what they are REALLY up to with quicksand, I mean quixar. Are you in any networking company? If you are not maybe check out Nikken. I can give you almost any information you can ever dream of on this company, including how many distributors there are in the u.s, in the world, how much money the distributors are making, which amway will never tell anyone! We are upfront and I do not beat around the bush! I am honest and I was trained to be honest By Team diamond and Nikken inc. I can also get you the latest stat's from Dun And brad ST. we have a 5a1 rating and we will be featured in a major magazine pretty soon. Nikken is getting good publicity from around the world for the way we do our business and helping people feel better with our products. One more thing may I mention, We only make money by the product being sold. 20% of sales in Nikken are from retail customers who are obviously not in Nikken, this is a high number in any mlm. TO tell you the truth I really do not know what else to say because the more I research Nikken since I joined a year ago, the info gets even better. Unless I am missing something please let me know. Also let me know if you want me to forward info from newspapers on amway....more sad info! See you.
Subject: Finished your Amway story...
Mon, 28 Jun 1999
Hello Russ ,
I just finished reading the expose' on Amway . I
see its like 3 yrs old but seems timeless . My wife has been sucked into
their realm . Not all the way yet , but she is close . Shes so trusting
and easy going and I am just the opposite . I met the upline today and
my little voice was waving flags like I was about to land a plane full
of people on the interstate instead of a runway. I did some objective
research tonight , both sides of Amway , and reading what you wrote was
almost verbatim what I heard and felt today . The part where you
questioned Ted in the car and he in the end said ....Its been fun ....I
got to tell you today the upline said the same to me and when I read it
, I nearly fell off my chair w laughter . Its like You were watching the
activities today . I can tell the upline sees me as a threat because All
I did today was ask for figures and question the party line . She tried
to soothe me w promises of flying the luxurious Amway jet seeing where
Im a pilot . She couldnt tell me what kind of plane it was only that Id
never seen such an aircraft . Of course, I could fly it for free to the
Amway Island in the Bahammas . Its a shame that they have to behave as
they do . My wife has of course spent way more on their stuff than any
other product . Ive pointed this out but get the rebate bullshit . I
wanted to ask you if you saw any Doctors or their wifes . This is the
second time my wife has been snookered by doctors wives ?? The first was
on a long distance phone scam . I told her w all the money she has spent
on this stuff , she could have bought herself many things she does enjoy
that dont involve people like the ones she has encountered in Amway .I
just wanted to let you know everything I read on your web page , I felt
since she has been involved in this . I wish I had the time to relate
what Ive seen in such a short time . If you still operate your letter
section , please feel free to post this . Thank you for your web site ,
I needed to hear from someone that had the same reservations as I . Ill
ask my wife to read this as well .
Cheers
Subject: Finished your Amway story... Mon, 28 Jun 1999 Great story! Thanks for sharing.
Subject: Your Amway page... Mon, 28 Jun 1999 Dear Russell, Bravo on your great website. I too was sucked into the horrible world of Amway distribution by my sister and her husband. My husband and I started out like you: very curious and hopeful that we would one day be filthy rich. The people that say it is so great and that we are losers for not sticking too it are simply brainwashed whether they want to believe it or not. We were lucky. I was on to the scam after about a month. My husband stayed with it a little longer, and we had a few fights about it. But as soon as he figured out we were going broke and there are better things to do than go to the stupid meetings three times a week, he ran so fast and thinks it's idiotic now. It is incredible what they will fill your head with to make money off of you. And no matter how much they say they want to help you get rich, they are only helping because you getting rich makes them rich. PERIOD!!! They will deny that, but it is the absolute truth. Why else would you approach a total stranger, knowing nothing about the person, and say you want to "help" them. Crap! You are only helping yourself get rich by approaching them. I think the last straw came when my husband's father spent about $600 dollars on some items, giving us 93 points. Since we only had 7 points to get 100 and then we could get some money back, I ordered some makeup, which ran me about $50 and got the 7 points. We got a check for $3!!! So you can't even make it by just buying products. You'll go poor from just doing that. We lost way more money than we ever got back. It's all a bunch of hot air. The only reason the "Diamonds" are getting rich is the whole tape scam and speaking engagements. Thanks again for having the courage to stand up and tell all the crap they feed you. I'm glad you posted that letter. It just shows that person's ignorance. It always makes me laugh that all the Amwayites that slam others write and express themselves so poorly. I'm an editor and I was appalled at all the spelling and grammatical errors in that letter! All of the Amway people who write sound like they have no education whatsoever!! That's why they have to do Amway I guess, because they aren't smart enough to make it anywhere else. Thanks again :)
Subject: Your Amway story (part 3) Tue, 29 Jun 1999 Nice bit of keyboardship. I liked your writing stlye; very readable. Continue your crusade. Found your story on a magnetic web page. How do you feel about network marketing in general? My whole family was involved with the big A, and I was totally resistant. I like the concept of MLM though now, and the company I'm with. Just like anything else, there's good ones and not so good ones. Thanks for your work. Kind regards.
Subject: Your Amway story (part 1) Tue, 29 Jun 1999 Hi Russell, This is a short story, something similar but not quite as involved or elaborate as yours. Thanks, by the way. I was approached on the internet by people involved in what they called 'e-commerce', ie, internet shopping basically. They (a bloke, his wife and their 'upline') arranged meetings to sell me the idea of a business centred around ordering and buying groceries from the internet. There was a little reference to Amway, but it was always prefaced with the statement 'Don't worry about Amway, we're only in partnership with them so that we can use their distribution network'. I swallowed the spiel but red lights started flashing when I was handed the Business Pack (Amway Corp). I took it home and read through the guff and was really put out that in fact I was being asked to sign up to be a Distributor. I haven't paid to join or signed up yet, though I promised to send the money on ($105). I'll be happy to pay the postage to send their shit back instead. Here's the email I sent just yesterday to the 'recruiter' - note that we both have the same name, which may be a little confusing (both male also): ========================================== ***** Guy wrote: > Hi ***** Great to have you on board. I believe that we will work > well together to help acheive your dreams and goals. I am sending you > this week an authorisation form, it will explain itself in regards to > ordering. I wish we had met your wife the other day. Do you spell it > *****? *** will be in Tamworth for 10 weeks and would like to do a > home meeting with you, this means you get afew people around and *** > will come up show them the business plan on a whiteboard, we usually > suggest as many as you can fit into your lounge room. *** will contact > this week to arrange a day. Perhaps Wednesday or Thursday Night is a > good time. A simply contact like "we have just started a new company, > it's called HSD Home shopping Delivered, we are looking to expand in > Armidale, on thursday night I have a successful guy from Newcastle up > to run a meeting in my home can you come along there may be some money > in it for you? Use this a couple of times if it doesn't have much > success stop and mail me a nd let me know. Dear *****, I've taken a while to respond to your email because we've been very busy with a rich life and wanted to take time to consider a response. I've looked over the Amway material; read the fine print, etc, and fortunately for me I realised it's not any business proposition I want to become involved with. I became suspicious when I met with you and ***** and you weren't the slightest bit interested in talking about your future child. It is a truism that the most wonderful thing that can happen to you is becoming involved in the life of the human being you've already sired - there are riches in that relationship that you've not dreamed of and no amount of money can buy. If you ignore that, I guarantee you won't become rich in any way, shape or form. Amyway is bullshit!!! You're family is much more important. Realise that during our meeting as much as your were trotting out the banter/the plan/the dogma, I was assessing your human interaction and fortunately I can smell contrivance and subtle manipulation a mile off (read bullshit) though I played along. Yes, I'm angry about this whole affair, particularly that you guys (you and ***) believe the con and are only interested in me becoming part of the big lie that is Amway. I urge you, GET A LIFE!! Otherwise you might wake up (if your're lucky) in about 10 years time and realise the money hasn't come and the family is long gone. I'm about to mail back the starter pack but you'll have to let me know where to send it. I've used some of the samples so if you want to be reimbursed let me know the cost of the LOC and the toothpaste. I'm not interested in the least in what you guys are doing and will not read or respond to anything to do with HSD or Amway. Please don't call or write - I have no wish to be rude to you. I strongly suggest you look at the following and do a reality check - it may be the only wake up call you get before things fall apart: http://www.tc.umn.edu/nlhome/m307/wilke001/amway.html http://www.awod.com/gallery/rwav/slarsen/amway.html http://www.dcn.davis.ca.us/~btcarrol/skeptic/amway.html http://www.cocs.com/jhoagland/ http://thingy.apana.org.au/~fun/amway/ http://www.tc.umn.edu/nlhome/m307/wilke001/nickweb/afiless4.htm http://www-scf.usc.edu/~psommer/amway.html http://www-acc.scu.edu/~jgreenfield/amway_home.html http://www.mojones.com/mother_jones/SO96/myrick.html http://wkweb5.cableinet.co.uk/ronjohn_98/ http://members.tripod.com/~dreamsteal/ http://www.ex-cult.org/Groups/Amway/aus/html/aj.htm ========================================== Thank God for the internet. I doubt I would have joined Scamway ultimately, but the negative info helped me move on my decision. The short few weeks I had this hanging over me was burden enough and I'm grateful to be relieved of it. I love it how almost everyone I talk to about my recent encounters has an Amway horror story to tell - what a human tragedy they perpetrate. Cheerz
Subject: Finished your Amway story... Mon, 28 Jun 1999 Thank you, I almost got sucked in last week. As you must know they are using a new name, Quixtar, and going high tech. I was a Shaklee dealer for a while in the 70's and I fell for Primerica in '94. I hate MLM. However, I have a conflict and I need your advice. I signed up as an Amsoil dealer in March for $10. just to buy wholesale. The dealer that I signed up with didn't really care to sign up dealers, he just wants to sell their products. I don't get any pressure or even encouragement to sign up a down-line, although I could if I wanted to (I don't). Are you familiar with Amsoil? I love the products but I have mixed feelings about being in any MLM. I will cost me $20./year to be a dealer and I save about 25% on products. I have sold a few things to friends at work, but that is not my priority. Another thing that bothers me is that the name Amsoil sounds so much like Amway. Amsoil is my first choice of oil, it's the only oil I want to use so I don't know what to do, please give me your opinion.
Subject: Re: Finished your Amway story... Tue, 29 Jun 1999 I have no opinion on Amsoil, so the choice is yours. It's simple. First off, I seriously doubt that the prices are *really* 25% cheaper than what you can get in stores. You should do some comparison shopping with a list of prices. Make sure you compare actual price per quantity used, and not price for the same size container, as they tend to cloud discussion with some sort of hokum about "concentrated" products. Along the same lines, take a hard look at the products that you think you like. Are they really superior enough to justify the costs, or is most of their appeal based around marketing gimmicks? If, after doing this, you decide that the products you want are worth their relative costs, PLUS 20 bucks a year (you change your oil how many times in a year? four?), PLUS the constant irritation of your pushy friends who will ask you to come with them to meetings and reconsider the opportunity (I don't care if they said they won't; they will!!), then by all means, stay a distributor.
Subject: Comment on something from your guestbook Tue, 29 Jun 1999 In the last entry of your guest book, you replied to someone's comments, including this comment about the value of tapes: > I proctored a computer programming class in my last quarter of college. > All the students heard the same thing spoken by their teacher. Not all > of them did what they were told. Some of them just couldn't get the > hang of programming in spite of all their OBVIOUS dedication and long > hours in the lab; I didn't think they were stupid, I assumed they'd > probably decide to major in politics or math or something else. Not > everybody likes programming. > You definitely didn't take much formal logic, or you're just not applying it here. Never mind that the Amway bights make way too much money from the support materials. That's a completely different argument--the point here is the value of tapes for equal knowledge across a large organization. Let's assume that all of the students were present during the lectures. How many were actively listening? How many were ready for each lesson? How many took good notes? The point of the tapes is to internalize the information, to make it second nature. If tapes of the lectures were available and properly promoted (and affordable-- let's assume free for the sake of argument), doesn't it follow that the students would get a better picture? Maybe even something closer to the same picture. As you pointed out, some successful students went about learning in their own way, while others just had a knack for programming. Hey, I have a BS in Computer Science from the University of Texas at San Antonio, and I made it a point to always choose the most difficult professors. I also studied from as many sources as I could find, from Knuth to Sorenson. I also taped lectures, for multiple reasons. This was prior to my Away experience; I was really looking to fill the holes in lectures that I wasn't ready for. That last clause is the main reason that network marketers need tapes and books. If you think UNIX has a steep learning curve, it's nothing compared to learning how to market via a network. The tapes serve the same purpose as computer- aided instruction, especially the rote variety. The instructor never tires, and as long as the concepts are fundamental (some tapes just preach and others are fluff), the information is there for whenever the student is actually ready for it. Many tapes that seemed purely for entertainment value became hard-core information after I'd gotten further along in my experience. I tried Away twice; the first time, I was very fortunate and built a large, remote group that my upline supported for me after the consulting gig that allowed me to start and nurture the group was over. I hit a major snag when I got to the level where I was eligible for some of the profits from the sales of the books, tapes, and seminars. I'd had no idea that the profits were distributed that way, and I was completely disillusioned. Five years later, I was approached by someone from a different organization in Away, and they assured me that they didn't do things that way. I asked the first Diamond upline from me about it, and he said that the group had broken away from a group that profited from the sale of the motivational materials and events so that they could do it "right". It still bothered me that the prices were high enough for a profit margin, but no one would talk about it to me until I made Direct. So I went Direct, and sure enough, this group was doing it, too. They had actually broken off because they weren't favored by the leadership of the other group, and didn't get as much money. I quit immediately, and I clued my group into the truth. Most of them were in complete denial; sad, but true. They just couldn't accept that there was much more money in it for the big pins from the sales of the "business aids" than from the sale of Away products. If you think about it, it's a tautology: you buy the business aids so you can succeed; when you're successful enough, you sell the business aids. I believe very strongly in Network Marketing, but that's just not the way to do it. I now represent Nikken, a company from Japan that markets alternative healthcare. Magnets and Far Infrared are their core technologies, and there are quite a few ex- Away Diamonds in the early leadership of Nikken's North American organization. They are dead-set on preventing the kind of power abuse and mind control that I saw in both of the Away organizations I was involved with. You've probably heard about magnetism for health; every major university has done some kind of study and proven their effectiveness, but no one's really sure why they work. Some argue vasodilatation, others claim neural stimulation. I don't have a clue, but they definitely work. I also know that Nikken holds hundreds of international patents on their technology, and that most other magnetic products are essentially refrigerator magnets, with no complex magnetic fields or multiple polar opposition. Far infrared is the tech that made those "thawing plates" work, but that implementation is really all we've seen in North America. The technology was developed by NASA, first as tiles on the shuttle, then as ceramic fibers in space suits. It's quite amazing; far infrared waves are extremely beneficial; they provide warmth and stimulate the body's healing systems. But, I digress . . .> Amway and its motivational materials are based on the idea that if you > tell everybody the same thing in the same way, then the ones who listen > and follow instructions precisely are the ones who will get rich. I'm > sorry, but in my human experience that's clearly not true. > Well, it's not in mine, either. Neither in reality (your meaning), nor in anyone's belief system that I know of. You're trying to reverse the implication. Success implies the use of motivation, from whatever source. Motivation, however, does not imply success. It's like the old saw, "Leaders are readers." It does not follow that "Readers are leaders," although most major newspapers would have you believe this. BTW, your Queen of England analogy is flawed, because there's only room for one queen. Change it to name some position where competition is possible, and I assert that *truly knowing* what that person knows will make you their equal. I do refer to Einstein's assertion that knowledge without action is ignorance, however.
Subject: Re: Comment on something from your guestbook
Wed, 30 Jun 1999
> In the last entry of your guest book, you replied to someone's comments,
> including this comment about the value of tapes:
>
> > I proctored a computer programming class in my last quarter of
college.
> > All the students heard the same thing spoken by their teacher. Not all
> > of them did what they were told. Some of them just couldn't get the
> > hang of programming in spite of all their OBVIOUS dedication and long
> > hours in the lab; I didn't think they were stupid, I assumed they'd
> > probably decide to major in politics or math or something else. Not
> > everybody likes programming.
> >
> You definitely didn't take much formal logic, or you're just not
> applying it here.
I don't know what makes you think I could pull off a computer science
degree without taking much formal logic. Oddly enough, none of my
formal logic classes ever mentioned the value of audio tapes. You
want I should run around drawing little upside down 'A's and 'E's and
"implies that" symbols all over the Amway business
materials? In any case, there's no need to get personally snippy.
> Never mind that the Amway bights make way too much money from the
> support materials. That's a completely different argument--the point
> here is
> the value of tapes for equal knowledge across a large organization.
>
No, that is not a completely different argument -- it is EXACTLY the point.
I'm not sure I see where you are coming from. First off, you are
trying to convince me that selling tapes in these organizations is a
genuinely necessary way to disseminate information. But later on you
acknowledge that Amway is making most of their money by selling tapes
rather than creating business. You said something very smart which I
agree strongly with:
> If you think about it, it's a tautology: you
> buy the
> business aids so you can succeed; when you're successful enough, you
> sell the
> business aids.
>
Yes! Bravo! Now I'm telling you that this view is not compatible with
this:
> The point of the tapes is to internalize the information, to make it
> second nature.
The point of the tapes, as you obviously realize, is to sell more
tapes. And meetings. And books. It IS a tautology. P implies P. I
say the number of tapes (thousands) is artificially and unnecessarily
boosted and they are overpriced for the exact reason that they are
money in the till.
Oh sure, a certain amount of information dissemination is necessary
and inevitable, but do you seriously disagree that most of the tapes
are repetitions of each other? The reality of college is, you *don't*
learn things by rote. Show me a real person who learned UNIX by
reading the book over and over again. A lot of students never read
the book at all; I'd say the majority read the book once. Then they
actually went and worked in a UNIX environment, and used the book as
nothing more than a quick indexed reference forever after.
> If tapes of the lectures were available and properly promoted (and
> affordable--
> let's assume free for the sake of argument), doesn't it follow that the
> students
> would get a better picture? Maybe even something closer to the same
> picture.
Disagree. I do lousy at learning by audio. I was one of those who
skipped a large number of lectures, and the lectures that I got most
out of were the ones where the professor visually demonstrated a
concept I was trying to get. Learned by seeing and doing, not by
hearing. I need to hold a book in my hands so I can skip around and
cross-reference things.
> I believe very strongly in Network Marketing, but that's just not the
> way to do it.
> I now represent Nikken, a company from Japan that markets alternative
> healthcare.
> Magnets and Far Infrared are their core technologies, and there are
> quite a few ex-
> Away Diamonds in the early leadership of Nikken's North American
> organization.
That alone would make me suspicious.
> They are dead-set on preventing the kind of power abuse and mind control
> that I
> saw in both of the Away organizations I was involved with.
>
> You've probably heard about magnetism for health; every major university
> has done
> some kind of study and proven their effectiveness, but no one's really
> sure why they
> work.
Whoa! That's quite a statement to make, Mr. "You definitely
didn't take much formal logic". Let's put that in formal
symbolic terms, shall we?
for All major Universities U:
there Exists a study S such that:
S proves the effectiveness of magnets
AND
there does not Exist a person P such that:
P has a clue what's going on.
Or to reverse the first part of the assertion...
there does not Exist a major University U such that:
U has not proven the effectiveness of magnets.
Not one single major University hasn't done a successful study of
magnetic healing, hmmm? I'll bet I could falsify that one pretty
easily.
Okay, just joking with ya. Here's what I think. I'm not a
magnetoscientist and neither are you, so I'm going to be immediately
wary about people who talk in complicated scientific words that I'm
not supposed to understand for the purpose of selling a product. I
don't have the slightest idea what vasodilatation means, and I don't
really know what effect it would have if my neurons got stimulated.
My eyes glaze over when I try to think why I should care whether
refrigerator magnets have "complex" magnetic fields or not.
So my first choice of information was to go straight to the Skeptic's
Dictionary and look up magnetic healing. There it was, which you can
see for yourself at . It sounds
like a load of hooey to me.
> > Amway and its motivational materials are based on the idea that
if you
> > tell everybody the same thing in the same way, then the ones who listen
> > and follow instructions precisely are the ones who will get rich. I'm
> > sorry, but in my human experience that's clearly not true.
> >
>
> Well, it's not in mine, either. Neither in reality (your meaning), nor
> in anyone's belief
> system that I know of. You're trying to reverse the implication.
> Success implies the
> use of motivation, from whatever source. Motivation, however, does not
> imply
> success. It's like the old saw, "Leaders are readers." It does not
> follow that "Readers
> are leaders," although most major newspapers would have you believe
> this.
>
Okay, then let me put it this way: people who listen to the same
things over and over again and learn to memorize things are rarely
those who become brilliant leaders.
> BTW, your Queen of England analogy is flawed, because there's only room
> for one
> queen. Change it to name some position where competition is possible,
> and I
> assert that *truly knowing* what that person knows will make you their
> equal.
If you *truly know* what that person knows, then your brain will be in
the exact same state as that person, which means that you will BE that
person. Then obviously you will be their equal. Since that's not
actually possible, I'll have to assume that you can only *sort of
know* what any other person knows.
Besides, the sort of knowing that comes from reading and tape learning
is never going to amount to *truly knowing*. Because most people's
knowledge is based on extensive experience, not to mention their own
past mistakes.
Consider these statements:
If you read and absorb everything Gary Kasparov wrote, even though you
never played a single chess game, you will be the (human) chess
champion of the world.
If you know everything that Howard Stern knows, you will get your own
nationally syndicated radio program.
If you know everything that Sylvester Stallone knows, you can waltz
right into Hollywood and demand a million dollars to make a movie.
> I do
> refer to Einstein's assertion that knowledge without action is
> ignorance, however.
Oops... out of time... gotta go slave away at my J.O.B... ;) We'll
continue this later, it's getting interesting.
Subject: Re: Comment on something from your guestbook
Sat, 03 Jul 1999
At 09:01 AM 6/30/99 -0700, you showed me that I failed at my
communication attempt. Apparently, you took some offense at
what I said and how I said it (you said, "snippy", heh, heh).
Really, I didn't mean any harm; I see from your closing that
you're not so put off that you won't read my reply, so ...
I appreciate that you checked with the Skeptical Inquirer. Not
only does it add to your credibility, the particular article that
you referenced pointed me to the National Council Against
Health Fraud. Have a look at the begrudging, yet edifying (no
Amway pun intended) entry at
http://www.ncahf.org/newslett/nl20-6.html#magnet
"Magnet Therapy Relieves Post-Polio Pain".
Also, when I briefly mentioned what I know about Nikken, I
didn't mean to make any claims, just relaying what I know.
There are two other double-blind studies that I know of
besides the one at Baylor. I heard about both of these on
NPR; the most recent was in November of last year, which
used a wide variety of chronic pain (and/or numbness, what
a combination) sufferers in their groups. More than 75% of
the non-control group reported improvements in discomfort
(sounds weird, you know what I mean, right?). What was
really telling--to me--was that only subjects in the group
with the magnets reported feeling warmth and other subtle
tactile sensations where the magnets were.
I hadn't heard of Nikken at that time, and the magnets
don't have a dramatic effect on me (I do get concrete
results with the far infrared tech, that's another story).
A friend of mine asked me about a chair pad I have at
work, so I told him where the meeting would be, as I
didn't plan to attend. He came back really impressed.
Not only does he appear to have extreme sensitivity to
magnets, but he was impressed that he couldn't buy
products or sign up after the "pep talk". He jokingly
referred to the brief pitch for involvement in the
marketing of the products as "the cash & prizes portion
of the show".
As for tapes for learning, I can see that we differ
fundamentally on this topic. I learn by rote as well
as by experience. I'm particularly weak at math, for
example. During my school days, my math study pal and
I "derived" a method for learning the equation patterns
in higher math classes: we copied our solutions, as well
as our notes from derived examples from lectures.
Then again, I'm fairly well-versed in the theater, and
other communications arts. Perhaps my personal valuation
of lectures of any kind has a lot to do with the fact that
I also like to talk. Ever hear that the #1 fear is public
speaking? I live for it.
Hey, I never said that selling tapes was necessary to
inform; at least, I didn't mean to say that. I do favor
it as a method of communication. But then again, I
produce an interview program for my company every
six weeks. It plays like a radio show, but it's distributed
to 1700 employees, plus a handful of executives in the
parent company who like the idea and are trying to figure
out how it fits into the overall strategy. I don't care
about that, I just treasure the opportunity.
Specifically, I said:
>> The point of the tapes is to internalize the information, to make it
>> second nature.
Then, you said:
>The point of the tapes, as you obviously realize, is to sell more tapes.
No, I don't realize that. I listened to 'em a lot, and there was all kinds
of technical tips and the exact kind of motivation I needed to meet
with strangers in South Boston. But then, you wouldn't understand,
since you haven't actually tried it.
>And
>meetings. And books. It IS a tautology. P implies P. I say the number
of
>tapes (thousands) is artificially and unnecessarily boosted and they are
>overpriced for the exact reason that they are money in the till.
Anyway ... I think it's kind of funny, your site has such a
complete feel to it, but you never actually did any
network marketing. You seemed to say in your reply
that there's no substitute for "actually doing it." I
understand that you have no desire to do anything like
it, and that's just great. It's just that--I don't know
any other way to say it, Russell: you have no idea what
you're talking about. I can see how you understand the
mechanism, and most, if not all of the processes. But
how could you possibly understand?
>> In the last entry of your guest book, you replied to someone's comments,
>> including this comment about the value of tapes:
>> > I proctored a computer programming class in my last quarter of
college.
>> > All the students heard the same thing spoken by their teacher. Not all
>> > of them did what they were told. Some of them just couldn't get the
>> > hang of programming in spite of all their OBVIOUS dedication and long
>> > hours in the lab; I didn't think they were stupid, I assumed they'd
>> > probably decide to major in politics or math or something else. Not
>> > everybody likes programming.
>> You definitely didn't take much formal logic, or you're just not
>> applying it here.
>I don't know what makes you think I could pull off a computer science
degree
>without taking much formal logic.
Didn't realize you were degreed in CS, even if I had, I don't have the time
or inclination to look up your curriculum. UNM, UCBoulder are great UNIX
learning environments, but the CS degree requires only a survey class where
you get everything in one semester.
>Oddly enough, none of my formal logic
>classes ever mentioned the value of audio tapes.
I doubt that it mentioned anything specifically in the real world,
especially if you had examples from Lewis Carroll.
>You want I should run around
>drawing little upside down 'A's and 'E's and "implies that" symbols all
over
>the Amway business materials?
Of course not, and I was responding to your assertions about the students
you proctored.
What I meant was that you made assumptions large enough to drive a barge
through ("All the students heard the same thing spoken by their teacher.
Not all
of them did what they were told. Some of them just couldn't get the
hang of programming in spite of all their OBVIOUS dedication and long
hours in the lab") and then just wrote the group off. All I was trying to
say
was that tapes helped me. Unless I'm way out of the percentile, surely
tapes would have helped someone in that lab.
>In any case, there's no need to get personally snippy.
Honestly, I didn't mean to. Speaking of studies, a study in 1988 at Yale
overturned its hypothesis (electronically networked conversations
would yield a measurable advantage in solving problems), but also
revealed that most people are willing to get really nasty in e:mail and
even moreso on bulletin boards.
>> Never mind that the Amway bights make way too much money from the
>> support materials. That's a completely different argument--the point
>> here is
>> the value of tapes for equal knowledge across a large organization.
>No, that is not a completely different argument -- it is EXACTLY the point.
Hey, it may be your point, but it's not mine. As I said above, I like audio
for everyone. I don't think they should pay for it; they don't in my
company. In a network marketing organization, someone has to, for
several reasons, not all economical.
>I'm not sure I see where you are coming from. First off, you are trying to
>convince me that selling tapes in these organizations is a genuinely
necessary
>way to disseminate information.
Okay, I'll take that. The tapes are needed, and they have to be bought, or
cognitive dissonance would reduce listening. There's just no good reason
for large profits to be reaped.
>But later on you acknowledge that Amway is
>making most of their money by selling tapes rather than creating business.
Okay. Right. And your point is ... ? I despise the AMOs that have created
illegal pyramids. I hope they die early, painful deaths. Satisfied? I'm
not
trying to defend Amway just because I clicked on the mailto: link on your
anti-Amway page.
>You said something very smart which I agree strongly with:
>> If you think about it, it's a tautology: you
>> buy the
>> business aids so you can succeed; when you're successful enough, you
>> sell the
>> business aids.
>Yes! Bravo! Now I'm telling you that this view is not compatible with
this:
>> The point of the tapes is to internalize the information, to make it
>> second nature.
Here we are, again. OK, I don't think it's right, but this is the process
I'm
trying to explain:
You get into Amway, and you're all for the tools thing, but you just can't
get Amway working for you. You can talk anyone in the world into buying
the tapes, etc., but without success in Amway, the AMO won't pay you
for your trouble. You need the tapes to learn the network marketing
business.
Imagine a situation where you have a great network marketing company
(multi-level, whatever), and the motivational materials, events, etc., are
produced by third-party companies. These guys want to make a profit,
but there's competition.
See the difference? What I'm claiming is that to undergo a personal
paradigm shift, people (OK, most people) need a catalyst.
For example, I wasn't interested in computing, but I'd dropped out of
school after becoming disillusioned with the theater. I knew I wanted
to go back to college two years later, but didn't really have much of a
direction. Then I ran into Alan from high school at a party. Alan was
the kind of guy who got into the auto mechanics class because he
knew he could get Tolulene to inhale for a high. So, almost four years
out of high school, I see him at a party and try to avoid him, but he
tells me he's tending bar for a living--when I try to congratulate him
and detach, he says, "Aw, bartending's boring. I'm going to school to
get a computer job."
That was my catalyst. I kept telling myself, "If Alan can do this, so
can I!" I saw him again during my final semester, after making the
dean's list eight times and three internships with different groups
in Southwestern Bell, learning system administration. He had gone
to a six-week COBOL class, and had actually gotten placed with an
insurance company, maintaining mainframe programs. "Computers
are boring! Seen that movie, 'Cocktail'? Me and a buddy are gonna
open one like that in Dallas, dude."
I don't want to go as far as endorsing TV preachers, but they're
an example of what I'm getting at: regardless of the intentions
of their authors, there exist sources of positive life change
which appear destructive.
Then again, it's--what, 1:30 in the morning? I'm stretching it,
I can tell.
>The point of the tapes, as you obviously realize, is to sell more tapes.
And
>meetings. And books. It IS a tautology. P implies P. I say the number
of
>tapes (thousands) is artificially and unnecessarily boosted and they are
>overpriced for the exact reason that they are money in the till.
Okay, I'll grant that. Really, I don't care. These people are evil scum,
and they're ruining it for anyone who wants to go about anything similar
in an honest way.
>Oh sure, a certain amount of information dissemination is necessary and
>inevitable, but do you seriously disagree that most of the tapes are
>repetitions of each other? The reality of college is, you *don't* learn
>things by rote.
Not the important stuff, but trig substition in second-semester Calculus?
You bet your ass I learned it by rote. High-level matrix transforms?
Rote, man, rote. The many-splendored arguments to the UNIX 'ls'
command? Rote, through repeated applications of the man page.
OK, I'm weird. I apologize.
>Show me a real person who learned UNIX by reading the book
>over and over again.
Hmmm, "learned UNIX". Pretty broad, open to interpretation.
You know what? I got a boost during a plateau in sysadmin when
I got to hear a TAPE from a "spoken history" project on UNIX.
Now, these guys didn't teach me any technique, but it just made
me feel good about what I was doing after I heard a real human
being. I really regret not making a copy; I was sure I could get
the whole series, but it wasn't made available!
I'd have paid way too much money for those tapes. Bill Joy
telling 'vi' stories? Ken Thompson's motivation for designing
an OS for the PDP-8? Dennis Ritchie on the last compile?
Maybe I'm just a tape junkie. Shit, I'm listening to the TV
signal from my video card, learning publication trivia on some
late-night PBS show.
>A lot of students never read the book at all; I'd say
>the majority read the book once. Then they actually went and worked in a
UNIX
>environment, and used the book as nothing more than a quick indexed
reference
>forever after.
OK, sure.
>> I believe very strongly in Network Marketing, but that's just not the
>> way to do it.
>> I now represent Nikken, a company from Japan that markets alternative
>> healthcare.
>> Magnets and Far Infrared are their core technologies, and there are
>> quite a few ex-
>> Away Diamonds in the early leadership of Nikken's North American
>> organization.
>That alone would make me suspicious.
Really? So you think all Amway diamonds are slime? It's OK if you do,
just want to confirm that you meant to imply that.
>> They are dead-set on preventing the kind of power abuse and mind control
>> that I
>> saw in both of the Away organizations I was involved with.
No comment on this? For me, this is the whole enchilada.
Must go, more later.
Subject: Your Amway story (part 2) Wed, 30 Jun 1999 I enjoyed your page about Amway. This is great info. I have been a distributor for many years but could never make the business work. My upline thinks I am a jerk because I do not worship him. He hasn't spoken to me in years. I try to speak to upline's upline and so on all the way to Yager and still cannot get a real person. The Amway corporation does not answer my email. Thanks for sharing. You are a hero.
Subject: Finished your Amway story... Wed, 30 Jun 1999 just read most of your story. I got the pitch 2 months ago they don't have any answers for good questions other than" you'll get rich, everone wants to be rich ,don't they?" they left came back 5 days later left and haven't been back . Guess I was bad boy (wicked grin)
Subject: Your Amway page... Wed, 30 Jun 1999 Have you succeeded at anything else? Try again! Do you have an alternative? Quixtar looks great--I think you can do it. I love you--God knows, you need love!
Did this person just hit on me??
Subject: Your%20Amway%20page... Sat, 10 Jul 1999 Glasser that was great! i dont know how many people i have shared this with!!!! Keep up the good work!!! Best
Subject: One more fact for the saturation argument... Thu, 15 Jul 1999 Hey Russell, Keep up the good work. I've recently been saved from the scam, and find it hard to imagine how I got 12 months into it without ever questioning my sole source of (mis) information (Amway and AMOs). One quick trip on the net (looking for info on Quixtar) and all was revealed. Anyways, on the subject of "will never saturate", the "there's over 300 million people in North America, you just gotta find 6" argument gets a least cut in quarters when one realizes that 300 million people equates to roughly 75 million households. And it's usually one distributorship per household. Thought I'd just pass that along since I hadn't seen it up on any of the sites. Also, if you're keeping track, the 10 customer rule "doesn't apply" up here in Canada either, according to my highly edified upline. (but it does, obviously!) And finally, my favourite quote from the tapes: "Never put your upline in a position where they will be forced to lie to you!" (This was on a tape my sponser gave me to quell my concern about all the "junk" I'd just read on the Internet!) Keep the faith...
Subject: Finished%20your%20Amway%20story... Thu, 15 Jul 1999 I am still a distributor, but recently saw the "light" after 4-1/2 years. Your story and others posted on similar sights are so true. I'm a professional and saw the business as a way to diversify my income...which is well into the 6 figures. Amway people told me that because of my credibility that my business would skyrocket to Direct in 6 months. I will admit the excitement of adding another $50K to my current income seemed to enticing to turn away from, so I bit hook, line and sinker. I was introduced to a Diamond my first meeting and that was it for me. Over the first 2 years I showed the marketing plan to well over 100 people (personals). I worked the business as hard as anyone in the local group...I was the talk of the group. I was sponsoring people and then they would drop out. "Sponsor 12, find the ones that want it, and work in depth", Bill Britt would say. I was doing just what the tapes and speakers said to do...I never thought it was me that was wrong, it was the people that didn't understand the business or were just too lazy to do it. "Some will, some won't, somewhere there's SIX." The really unfortunate thing from my prospective is that we could afford the cost of the business (the tapes, books, meetings, seminars & rallys, night owls, covered dish gatherings, and major weekend functions), but there are countless other out there that are hurting. Then comes Quixtar...the greatest gift to the Internet. Let me tell you straight up...it is not the greatest gift to the Internet...it is Amway...just the electronic commerce version of what has been going on for the past 4-1/2 years. The money to be made in Quixtar will go to the top distributors (Emerald and above) who have developed a huge motivation "tool" business. The "tools" account for well over 50% of the Emeralds and above overall income. They are paid to speak, kickbacks for tape sales, and significant rebates on major function ticket sales. Bill Britt (Crown Ambassador) gets over $20,000 per speaking engagement. Diamonds get paid in excess of $5000 per speaking engagement. So, where does the money come from? It comes from the hundreds of thousands of distributors (like me and my downline) that have forked over $20 for seminars to in excess of $70 for major function tickets. It is the biggest scam and being kept totally secret to the majority (99%) of the distributors in this business. If don't believe me, just confront your upline Direct or higher pin. Ask them how much a Direct get paid to STP at an open meeting? Or how much his cut is from the tape moneys? Well, I am out of this business now. Yep, I finally got the truth...it will set you free. "Check it out". Thanks to Russell for the forum to give my story and opinions.
Subject: Finished your Amway story... Fri, 16 Jul 1999 Hello Russell, I recently attended a personal develpoment seminar. The seminar was performed by an outstanding man called Anthony Robbins. He has coached many successful people around the world and teaches people useful tools for changing emotional states, goal setting, changing limiting beliefs, and how to use your physiology in an optimum way. The difference between this man and the Amway business is that he gets people to feel emotions rather than supress them. The climax of the seminar was to walk barefoot across a bed of hot coals. This demonstrated, not a lack of fear but that people can overcome fear if they want to. When I first attended the seminar (of over 3700 people) I was approached by a gentleman and he briefly mentioned the Amway Business opportunity. I was in a peak emotinal state and accepted his offer to visit my house after the seminar to discuss the Amway opportunity. He turned up in a suit and gave me an hour's presentation and left some information and tapes (which I will not listen to now!) This was two days ago! I wanted to find out more information about Amway and after reading your story, it really opened my eyes. What did Churchill say. The truth is incontrivertable, malaise may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end there it is!. When I read your story I felt cold shivers, and can recognise those traits you described in the gentleman which visited me. As Tony Robbins said at his seminar a belief is a feeling of certainty about what something means, and the Amway bunch seem to believe that they will be rich one day, it is a shame that most of the people don't know what they are doing and I believe that they are being unconsciously controlled by fear.!. I have read many personal develpoment books and tapes and there is alot of very useful information. But now I will especially careful what I read and what I listen to. Do you know about "subliminals"? People can record a subliminal message on a tape, and if you listen to that tape again and again then you will start believing things on an unconscious level. I have written more than I originally intended and so wish you every success in telling the world about this horrendus cult.
Subject: Your Amway page... Mon, 19 Jul 1999
Letter withheld by request.
Subject: Quixtar! Mon, 19 Jul 1999 I just got back from a Quixtar meeting ... another front for Amway. I had heard about Amway in the past, about the MLM and pyramid scam it is. I tried to warn others there about it (most of the response was "Oh, it's only $100 to sign up ... we buy the stuff anyway ... what do we have to lose?" I tried to tell them that Amway was a borderline cult, but no one wanted to hear it LOL. Anyhoo - not surprisingly the guy running the meeting had no costs of products available, but he did give the old inspirational tapes a run. Your website has given me enough information and ammo, hopefully I can convince people to save their $$$. I found this line from your website most ironic: "You WILL fail," he said with mock confidence. "And you'll fail for the same reason that these HACKS that you listened to were failing. The internet, hah! You'll never reach anybody that way." And I said, "Then I guess we simply have nothing more to say to each other." Beware, Amway is on the "NET" and it is under the name of Quixtar (phoenetically "quick star"). Puhleeeeeze! Thanks for the great website!
Subject: amway Tue, 20 Jul 1999 Hi. My contact with Amway has been a brief one. I really wanted to believe that we were all onto something. The whole Quixtar thing, giant Internet warehouse, people paying me because other people were buying off the net -- the whole yada. People don't buy shit off the net. I'm an Internet guy. I'm supposed to know this stuff. Sure, people buy things when it makes logical sense -- hard to find music, hard to find books (you need billions of titles in a search engine to find truly rare items effectively -- no one will stock that many titles in the retail world). Flowers for mom because I'm too lazy to drive down there, etc. Everything under the sun for 25% lower than the best deal you can get in the real world!!!!!! Yeaaahhhhhhhhh!!!!!! We're all saved now because once the entire world is converted (which will happen in only 40-some-odd days) -- they'll "CONTINUE" to keep saving us all that great money when they have obliterated all the competition -- even AFTER they've obliterated the competition -- .........whatever.... (oh, and they'll keep paying me too -- I have such a stranglehold on the manufacturers because of my affiliation with Amway).......doesn't make much sense when you consider the business world to be the most ruthless animal on this planet......sure, we'll honor your contract Amway.....until we can figure out a way to get rid of you so we can secure more profit.... But I really tried to believe them and their system. I threw away my own common sense, but couldn't throw away these nagging, basic questions.....why would anyone in their right mind continue to pay me for repeated visits to a web site after they had already made a first contact.....when have I ever even seen an Amway catalog except when an Amway representative was in front of me.....it's going to be pure unadulterated hell trying to convince people that this is the way to go when I can't even convince myself.... So I talked to my boss, thinking that he would be my first "recruit" -- he turns me around in a matter of seconds by appealing to my common sense. I can't take it any longer so I cruise the web eating up every bit of Anti-Amway I can get my hands on. I'm like a starving dog looking for release. Thanks for posting your story. I came on the net tonight to purposefully seek some entertainment at the expense of Amway. You did a pretty good job, and now I'm satisfied. Please change your color scheme around, you killed my eyes. :)
Subject: Your Amway story Thu, 22 Jul 1999 I really appreciate your story and the information that it has given me to make my decision. I don't know if you've heard, but Amway has disguised themselves as the online company known as Quixtar and are planning to swindle millions of dollars from Internet users doing the same kind of business as before. There web site is at http://www.quixtar.com. Currently, I have my own internet design business and I am in my fourth year as a Business Management major. My friend that I hadn't seen in a while conned me into going to one of those horrible conventions on a Saturday night! They were dressed in suit attire and the guy talking at the podium was feeding everybody with so much bullshit and everyone believed it. The snake didn't even mention the word Amway until the end of the convention (Quixtar is funded by Amway). At the time, I didn't know anything about Amway, but now I do thanks to you. Everything that you explained is pretty much how I have personally seen it. "If your not in Quixtar, your a moron!" Right now, I am in the process of returning all of the tapes and shit that my "so-called" friend gave me (you know, the big box of stuff) and telling him "NO THANKS!" I also know all of the persuasion tactics that he is going to try and use thanks to you. If you would like me to keep you posted on my current situation, I'll be sure to do that and also if you would like to post this message on your web site, feel free to do so, but PLEASE CHANGE MY NAME so I don't get Quixtar people hunting me down. Thank you very much
Subject: Thanks!! Fri, 23 Jul 1999 Hi Russell, I just wanted to thank you for posting your story on the internet. A friend of my husband is a few months into the Amway brainwashing, and I think he may be all but lost. I printed your story for him to read, hoping it would help, but he may already be too far gone. Even after starting to read your story, he still decided to drive from Philadelphia, PA to somewhere in North Carolina (a good eight hour drive) to attend a meeting. I don't know if the information I gave friend will help him, but it certainly helped my husband, who was a potential target. Thanks for your very good deed!
Subject: Finished your Amway story... Mon, 26 Jul 1999 Interesting that "Phil" deems Internet users as losers... Guess what large "corporation" is planning a new business program - that is going to really make the business take off, an opportunity NOT to be missed, you're crazy if you don't get in on the ground level - using the Internet? That's right, my friend, Amway. How do I know this? I am a distributor. My dear friends sponsored me in the business. I use some of the products (which I was using before), but ceased all other activity about one year after I joined - after I did the math and came to the same conclusion you did = I will never make millions until I start selling my own tapes and books, and until I begin doing so, I will have to spend hundreds of thousands getting there. And the right wing, religious, male-dominate aspect was SCARY - and I don't scare easily. I know, personally, four couples who got going in Amway through the efforts of the woman, who has been "encouraged" to give all the credit to "her man." I've got the chills just thinking about it. Thanks for your website. I am not, nor ever have been in Lone Ranger mode. I remain loyal to my friends, not the business; and love and support them on that level. We all make mistakes and must be allowed to learn from them, or not. Besides, I don't think they'd be able to hear me right now anyway. Others that join... well I figure it's Darwin's theory at work - too much money in these people's hands would probably be a dangerous thing anyway. I love the work that I do and have learned that "getting rich" does not mean you have a rich life. My childhood was privileged, to say the least, but I learned that having lots of money is not the key or magical cure for anything. It does not bring happiness, it does not insure against disease it neither creates nor maintains relationships, it does not bring peace of mind or spirit. These things come from within, not ever - absolutely NEVER - from the dollar. Thanks for the truth and honesty. Coming Out in MA (if you decide to post this, please don't post my real name/email - which will show at the top for you; reply if you like)
Subject: Finished your Amway story... Mon, 26 Jul 1999 Thanxs for the information regarding Amway, just like you I am also a student. I have also been suckered into wasting my time on those informational meeting, where everyone hangs on each word that the speaker says. After a while of being sucked in by the enthusiasm you begin to see the light and the Scam. I also did some calculations, and came up with the same figures of saturation as you did. The Amway group also has the best set of debaters and marketers in history. Every question I had they have replied in a logical way, but after thinking about there answers, one cannot help but laugh at their replies.. Once again thanxs for the information.. Bye.
p.s Here's another George B. Shaw quote " I am not rascist, I just hate everyone equally.."
Subject: Your Amway page... Mon, 26 Jul 1999 I saw your page and I thought you might be able to answer my question. I was warned about Amway may years ago by my mother (thank God). I have been approached a couple times by Amway distributors and have told them to go away. There is a new company now, though, that I think might be associated with Amway. It is called Quixtar and it is easy to find a web site giving vague information about the company and its purpose. Do you know if Quixtar is Amway? I have a friend who has gotten sucked into this thing and I am looking for evidence that they are linked so that I can try to get him to stop. Thanks
Subject: Finished your Amway story... Tue, 27 Jul 1999 Thank-you for your story...you maybe interested to know that Amway is now starting a virtual Mall and tryong to con people in. They are not using the name Amway but Quickstar. I almost got sucked in then I asked if it was Amway they didn't give me a straight answer...well the founders of Amway have started a new company....anyway I was supposed to attend a meeting tonight and I almost did because felt pressured and didn't want to be rude.....but your site just reenforced my resolve NOT to go... Thank you
Subject: Finished your Amway story... Wed, 28 Jul 1999 Hi Russell! I'm going thru a similar experience. Truth is, I keep putting my "sponsor" (for lack of a better word -- no, I have not, and have no intention of joining!) off because I have trouble telling him that I do no now, and never want to join Amway. I guess I'm hoping that he'll just give up, and leave me alone. In rwality, I'm guessing "fat chance" :-( Anyway, I *totally* agree witht he "cult" thing. I came to the same conclusion myself after my first meeting, and saw the reactions of people, and the "pumping up" that was going on, etc. I don't know why I'm writing to you; maybe just to let you know that I appreciate knowing that I'm not alone. Thanx; I *loved* reading your page, and if nothing else, has steeled my resolve to *not8 join!
Subject: welcome back Thu, 29 Jul 1999 Greetings, Russell. I tried to send this message via your Amway page, but for some reason it wouldn't connect. Feel free to move this letter to your page of Amway replies. Anyway, I was reading Jason's "getfacts" page about Amway when I came across your recent letter giving him your current web site address. I'd given up long ago, wondering what had become of you. So... what HAS become of you? Still living in Ft. Worth? Are you and Ginny still together? I'm sure all will be answered as I read the approximately one year's worth of mail I haven't read yet, but patience is not one of my few virtues. Looking forward to being brought up to speed in the days ahead. Meantime, welcome back. I, the Brain of Power, have spoken.
Subject: THANKS Thu, 29 Jul 1999 Russell, thanks for your insight. I've been approached several times in the last 15 or so years by family members, friends, and friends of friends who WERE all Amway distributors. None of them are today. Luckily I had my doubts about the program - partly because of doubts of my own ability. That was actually a positive in this case. I saved myself from being sucked into this program. It is funny - in all the cases the person told me, "I have this great way to make money running your own business. But I can't tell you over the phone. We have to meet." And after each presentation was made, "Don't discuss this with anyone. They won't understand how it works.I'll help you meet with them." I have just been approached again by someone about a new Internet based program Amway will be introducing in a few weeks. Again - the 'distributor' said in order to make it - you need to follow ALL the steps everyday or you will fail. He also said this requires a full time commitment, but I'll be able to retire, like he intends to do, in a few years. If this is so easy to make money at - why isn't Hillary Clinton getting involoved in it? She made $100,000 on a $1,000 cattle future. That was a joke. Seriously though, once again I am at the point where I am saying maybe this will work. But then I think, I know of no one who got rich on Amway - except maybe the family that started it. In closing - thanks for your input. It reminded me of my own doubts about the program. And the way you logically laid out the facts and pitfalls reinforced those doubts again.
Subject: Your Amway story (part 2) I am not an Amway rep. I am a curious individual who accidentally found your site by typing "Dexter Yager" into a search engine. I have been told about a new online business opportunity called Debiz. It is as you describe Amway - vague. You read that you will become successful selling online products, but no specifics. That comes from getting together with a sponsor. Anyway, as I read the different pages on the site, I finally found a list of leadership, with Dexter Yager appearing to be the top dog. I wondered how this could be a "new" opportunity that begins September 1999 if Dexter joined in 1964. That's when I searched his name on the search engine. I discovered he joined Amway in 1964. Then I found your site. Do you know if Debiz is online Amway sales, or is it perhaps another separate business that Dexter is breaking away to start on his own? I would appreciate any information you could provide. Thank you for all the lowdown on Amway's recruitment procedures.
Subject: Re: Your Amway story (part 2) I have never heard of Debiz. Amway's online business is called Quixtar. But Dexter Yager is a big time Amway honcho. Some even say that he is mostly responsible for the current state of Amway with their marketing of tapes etc for profit. I would definitely steer clear of any "opportunities" that involve Dexter. Thu, 29 Jul 1999 DeBiz is supposed to be an avenue for signing up with Quixtar. Go to debiz.com to check it out. A customer of my husband's is trying to get us to sign up, and this is the site he is telling us to go to. I found Quixtar on my own by typing in Dexter's name on a search engine. Quixtar was one of the sites I found and yours as well. I don't quite understand the connection, but I agree with you about Dexter seeming a bit shady and probably not someone to be connected with. Thanks for your response. Let me know, if you don't mind, if you hear anything to help clear up the confusion.
Subject: amway Thu, 29 Jul 1999 I don't know anything about Amway. Is it like the five MLM's listed on http://www.i-syte.com that pay you while you surf the net?
Note: the end of this message contained an advertisement for said site.
Subject: Re: amway Fri, 30 Jul 1999 > I don't know anything about Amway. > Well, if you'd actually read the site instead of grabbed the opportunity to advertise to me, maybe you *would*. > Is it like the five MLM's listed on http://www.i-syte.com that pay > you while you surf the net? > I don't think so. My understanding is that you don't pay to join those groups; they pay you to give them personal contact information so they can engage in targeted marketing. Their hope is that you will buy enough to make up for THEIR investment. I am not interested in joining such things, and I find advertisement spam annoying, but I don't consider them dangerous in the sense that Amway is.
Subject: Your Amway page... Thu, 29 Jul 1999 Russell, I read your Amway page and think it's a great thing you did by telling your story. Recently a friend of mine from work tried to get me to join this thing (actually the new Quixtar online version). You saved me at least the $150. Originally, I'd heard about Amway on the news and stuff. I figured it was just something that people did to make some money on the side but I had no idea how wierd and "occult" it was. The things you described the sales reps saying were EXACTLY what my friend was saying to me. I could never get a stright answer on (a) how much does the stuff cost? (b) what is the exact profit margins (c) why the hell do I have to go to meetings to sign up? Well the last question was answered with "federal regulations and some govt form (RL 4400??) had to be gone over in person or something. What really got me about this is that the guy who is (actually "was" as of reading this) is a pretty smart dude! I guess you're a programmer. Well my friend builds computers and really is pretty savvy (spelling) with a lot of business things. It's so odd that he's part of this. Well I guess you've heard all this, but I wanted to let you know it's people like you who speak out and publish these documents that keep the evils of society in check. But those are another story!
Subject: the amway lie Fri, 30 Jul 1999
For some reason, this letter quoted my entire epilogue to me and contained no other text. Memo: I don't need people to forward my own web site to me. I know what it says!
Subject: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 Suggest you check out current policies, prices, business and update your WebPages or don't you really want to tell whole truth?
|
Page 40 |
|