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Thu, 24 Feb 2000
Subject: Quixtar
I've just been approached by someone representing n.21 Quixtar.
Your web page is mind-opening to say the least. Can you direct me on up to
date info..
Thu, 24 Feb 2000
Subject: Re: Quixtar
My Quixtar page isn't done yet, but one page that does have some info on
Quixtar is http://www.getfacts.com/amway
It's a few months old, though. (Since Quixtar opened in September, "A few
months old" is most of its existence.)
Thu, 24 Feb 2000
Subject: Your Amway story (part 3)
Some things never change. I was in Amway for three years in the early
80's. I made a few bucks the third year. I remember one prospect, a
recently-married woman who started to cry and said she felt used when we
revealed why we were at her house. The only reason Amway is on my mind
right now is because my wife wants to check out their vitamins --
they're actually pretty good. You're right about the cultish aspects.
I will say this, though. At a big Amway meeting I heard these people
talk about Christianity and family values. I got interested enough to
start attending church and soon became a Christian. Christ has changed
my life, and I'm grateful for those who testified of Him, even though
their business opportunity is not what it is purported to be. I'm not
saying that's an excuse for lying, misleading, or coveting riches. Just
that it is not thoroughly evil. What you find depends on the particular
group of people, anyway. Amway is not monolithic.
Thu, 24 Feb 2000
Subject: Your Amway story (part 3)
Thanks for putting this story out. For the second time in my life, I'm
being "recruited". I keep telling this guy no and he keeps coming back with
"chinese food". Good job!
Thu, 24 Feb 2000
Subject: Your Amway story (part 3)
thanks for story. i read it alll. these people came to my house for the
first time the other night in the guise of "the future of business.com"
i was skeptical but the lure of ordering stuff cheaply and making money
with a vaguely explained scheme made me research furhter. they wanted
names of contacts on the first night. I did not give them any. we have a
meeting tomorrow night(i am sorry we dont have a meeting anymore).
thanks
Fri, 25 Feb 2000
Subject: Your Amway page...
Russell, I have really enjoyed reading your web page about AMWAY. It
just so happens that I work for a company that is owned by Bill
Britt.The name of the company is American Multi Media in Burlington NC.I
work there as a shipping clerk, but don't worry, I'm not going to ream
you about the shipping clerk remark on your web site. I'm writing you to
assure you that what you said about Amway couples having a low divorce
rate being a misconception is right on target. One of my duties is to
make address changes in our shipping computers, and it seems that about
every four mounths or so we have to change addresses of couples to two
different locations with the explanation that they have, or are getting
a divorce. AMI produces and duplicates hundreds of the "motivational"
cassettes,video,and CDs used in the "Business".Another part of my duties
with AMI is to deliver product to other Britt companies like Video Post,
who Tapes those wonderfull "DREAM WEEKENDS" on video to distribute all
over the world. On one trip to Video Post, while making a delivery, I
was propositioned by two of the employees to come to a meeting about a
"business" that was going "on line" that was the the wave of the future!
They did not know that I delivered the CDs for Amway to be cut-down to
business-card size at another Britt company called Concept Designs! I
sincerly hope that just going online will work against AMWAY in that
anyone that types in "Amway" is probably going to pull up your website
too! I realize that your going to probably drop the Amway crusade
someday, but if you ever need any inside poop on Bill Britt and his
companies, call me back. sincerly, G-MAN
Wed, 01 Mar 2000
Subject: Re: Your Amway page...
> Russell, I have really enjoyed reading your web page about AMWAY. It
> just so happens that I work for a company that is owned by Bill
> Britt.The name of the company is American Multi Media in Burlington NC.I
> work there as a shipping clerk, but don't worry, I'm not going to ream
> you about the shipping clerk remark on your web site.
Heh heh. For a minute I didn't know what you were talking about, until I went
to the argument page and search for "shipping clerk" and found that offhanded
remark about pecking order. Hope I didn't insult you. I didn't mean that
there's anything wrong with shipping clerks.
In my job during college, the shipping clerk was this slightly older, wiser
guy who gave me pointers on women. But he made less than I did. That's
probably what I was thinking when I wrote it. I had a lot of respect for
him.
> I'm writing you to
> assure you that what you said about Amway couples having a low divorce
> rate being a misconception is right on target. One of my duties is to
> make address changes in our shipping computers, and it seems that about
> every four mounths or so we have to change addresses of couples to two
> different locations with the explanation that they have, or are getting
> a divorce.
That does not surprise me. It is nice to have my wild speculation confirmed,
though.
> AMI produces and duplicates hundreds of the "motivational"
> cassettes,video,and CDs used in the "Business".Another part of my duties
> with AMI is to deliver product to other Britt companies like Video Post,
> who Tapes those wonderfull "DREAM WEEKENDS" on video to distribute all
> over the world. On one trip to Video Post, while making a delivery, I
> was propositioned by two of the employees to come to a meeting about a
> "business" that was going "on line" that was the the wave of the future!
Ah, good old Quixtar. Bet you weren't very strongly tempted.
> They did not know that I delivered the CDs for Amway to be cut-down to
> business-card size at another Britt company called Concept Designs! I
> sincerly hope that just going online will work against AMWAY in that
> anyone that types in "Amway" is probably going to pull up your website
> too!
That was one of my first thoughts on Quixtar. I think Amway offers an ISP
service that secretly blocks sites like mine "for your protection".
> I realize that your going to probably drop the Amway crusade
> someday, but if you ever need any inside poop on Bill Britt and his
> companies, call me back.
I'm always willing to hear as much inside poop as I can get.
Sat, 26 Feb 2000
Subject: finished your Amway story....
Hi there, i read all your story and would like to thank you very much, i was
a unsuccessful distributor (surprising hey!) for about 2 years. I finally
got sick and tired of all the bullshit and feeling terrible and quit. Since
then i have had feelings of guilt and failure regarding my self esteem as "
all those people must know what they are talking about". After reading your
story you have helped lift a long lingering burden from me.
My sincere thanks.
Sat, 26 Feb 2000
Subject: Amway
an interesting cautionary tale, and a great read!
Sat, 26 Feb 2000
Subject: Finished your Amway story...
Hey...in your epilogue, you state you weren't sure why you put in so much
time to write your story. Well, because people like me enjoyed reading it.
Thanks for taking the time to write and post your story. Wish you all the
best
Sat, 26 Feb 2000
Subject: Re: Finished your Amway story...
Well, that was three years ago. I do know that NOW. :)
Tue, 29 Feb 2000
Subject: Your Amway page...
I just got a sales letter about online shopping
and went to the web site and found some links
to Quixtar and Amway. I was surprised to say
the least since neither were mentioned in the letter.
The site is: dqBIZ.net , it's a logon site and the
number I was given was 1213107. Just thought
this was kind of interesting.
Wed, 01 Mar 2000
Subject: Finished your Amway story...
Bravo..... I only wish I was as skeptical as you in the beginning, but I
was one of the ones who learned the hard way, at the expense of my
precious time with my wife and children. Only now do I realize that it
literally took months for me to finally realize that I shouldn't feel
guilty and I am not a failure.
Wed, 1 Mar 2000
Subject: Amway feedback
Dear Russell
Thank you so much for this website. I was riveted and read the whole thing
in one sitting. A very good friend of mine has become ensnared in "The
Business", and I've gone from being worried about her to being furious with
her, and back to being worried again. After reading your story, I'm really
worried. Unfortunately, as you have documented so well, there's not much a
friend can do but sit back and watch the train wreck happen. I've heard
many of the lines you quote in your story from my friend, and I know that I
will just have to wait until she either comes to realize what "The Business"
is really about, or she loses her shirt. I'm just relieved to know that I
haven't been wrong about "The Business" all along. We Canadians have an
expression: "are you givin' me the business", which basically means " are
you trying to put something over on me". Boy, is it ever apt in this case.
Thanks again.
Thu, 2 Mar 2000
Subject: Your Amway story (part 2)
Hi, I'm not an Amway distributor but I am not going to attempted to insult
or "flame"you either. However, I used to be an Amway distributor. I
learned a few things when I was a distributor. I've read your article and
another article published on line called the little white lies, and the
thing that sticks out in my mind is that you and this other individual never
mention the fact that the tapes, books, seminars, rallies, and funtions are
all optional,and is purely your decision so when I hear somebody say they
lost money in Amway its horseshit. Nobody puts a gun to your head and
demands you do the extras that cost money. If you go to Waldenbooks and buy
a book on self improvement is that considered losing money? If so maybe you
and others alike should start bashing Waldenbooks. What people don't know
about Amway is some of the good that they do. The whole perception that
your trying to convey is that they are trying to steal your money, well did
you know they and the distributors have donated over 25 million dollars to
the Easter Seals? Big deal. I took the words right out of your mouth.
Well, how much has your company donated to worthy causes? I did not think
you could answer that, because most people can't. The problem with today's
society is that people try too hard to find negative in everything we do.
Amway has bad apple distributors, and as a matter of fact I couldn't stand
my sponsors. I had bad experiences in Amway,but it was the fun times that I
enjoyed and remember the most. Everyone complains that WOW it costs $500
to go to a major function, which is totally optional. I went to the Georgia
Dome for Free Enterprise weekend and was able to see President George Bush,
Jeff Foxworthy and had the time of my life and I can honestly tell you that
I could never have that much fun where I work nor could they afford an event
with that much fun. So, why would a non distributor defend a company that
he is not affiliated with? Because I also learned that winners will do what
losers wont. I did have one problem with Amway, but it was not my reason
for quiting my distributorship. My problem was the curiosity approach.
I've always believed that if you were going to make a stand, come out of
the closet. Don't hide. It makes you look guilty and people feel deceived
with that approach. I understand how you feel but yet I can't take sides
with you either. My feeling is that if you let somebody try to force
something down your throat like tapes and functions while your a
distributor, that is your own fault because you, as a distributor can
operate your business to your liking. It's all optional. I think the real
reason why people wont take a chance is because their scared, and when
somebody tries to give them a reason for trying to build the business they
respond with 10 reasons why they should not build it. I am not saying that
you should not be skeptical when looking into business ventures, but rather
you should listen to the good as well as the bad. People are like monkeys
because they duplicate 100% of the negative we do and fail to look at
positives. So what does that tell you. I've read some of the articles that
you have posted and they don't affect my feeling about the Amway Corporation
because I've heard and experienced more good than bad with them, and I'm not
a distributor. Thanks for reading.
Mon, 6 Mar 2000
Subject: thanks for info-good job!
Hey Russell,
Thanks for your research and experience with
Amway.Recently I met one of them
and tommorow is next meeting, so now Iam doing
research what all this is about,
I am international student from former soviet union.
This network marketing bazaar invading our
countries,playing in peoples hopes.My onkel
,brother,friends even my wife have experienced network
marketing presense in their lives.First i thought this
just robbing people and cult in its kind. recently I
met recruiter,
when he invited me to join his bussines I thought he
has normal bussines,but after few minutes I realized
about old game,but recruiter was extremely nice and
seemed very well educated,additional he claimed that
he is believer(+),and it was obvious by his quotation
of scriptures.And definetely he has great peoples
skills and if I have a bussines i would like to have
that kind of person as my bussines partner. Now I am
preparing questions for tommorow,and I want to ask you
did they change their method of bussines since you
have written your research?what do you think about
quixtar web based bussines part of amway ? Is it
possible just sell products and make living without
garbaging mind with greed ideology?
Mon, 6 Mar 2000
Subject: Finished your Amway story...
..and it brought back memories...my Dad did the Amway thing for a bit in
the early 70s: all I can remember is my Mom made him stop before we went
totally broke, he was a much, much better electron-beam welding technician
than a salesman, and, most importantly for an 11-year old, those little
Amway breath fresheners make insanely great miniature flame throwers...I
remember reading their literature, and even @ 11 it seemed like a load of
bull to me, and all the AmWay folks seemed like pathetic scared losers.
Thanks for posting that.
Tue, 7 Mar 2000
Subject: My reply to your Amway page
>From your website, it seems that you think that Quixtar might cause Amway
people to become more well-read and more likely to see opposing viewpoints.
I'd be surprised if Amway hadn't considered this.
I know some (non-pushy) Amway distributors. They tried to sell me on
Quixtar,
wasn't interested. But something they said struch a chord.
All the distributors are encouraged to purchase Amway's Internet software
and
market it to those interested, and access Quixtar only through this service.
It's "Better than AOL, none of the smut, it's all filtered out, it's so safe
that you can let your kids go on the Internet unattended." I'm pretty sure
it's more expensive than AOL, but not 100% sure.
The point is, your site, and all other public sites criticizing Amway, are
certainly filtered out by this special software.
Tue, 07 Mar 2000
Subject: John Sestina section of Argument
I've been waiting years for you to finish your Argument page,
specifically the first of the additional arguments about
John Sestina, Executive Diamond and Financial Planner.
Please update the mail section again, thanx
Wed, 8 Mar 2000
Subject: Your Amway story (part 1)
Thanks a million mate, i have just said goodbye to an Amway "rep" and said I
would check it out.....
HA HA HA. If he has a computer he obviously doesn't know how to use it, but
then all his spare time is
spent on visiting mugs like me for a cup of tea.... Yes he actually said
that his hobby was drinking tea, and chatting to new people. No I don't want
to travel or listen to the "brainwashing" tapes, or line his pockets, it
gives you a warning in the catalogue check out Amway, oh how utterly sad,
for him....
I hope that you carry on the good work, oh and its called networking over
here, as pyramid selling is illegal in the U.K.
Fri, 10 Mar 2000
Subject: Finished your Amway story...
Good Job!!
As an older brother of a kind but gullible younger brother I have observed
Amway in action for years and I long ago concluded that he had been captured
by a cult. Now he is touting Quixar and I got a ration of shit from my
sister about how my skepticism was bad for him!!!! Finally drove me to the
net to see what stuff was out there regarding this hideous operation.
Basically it has been confirming everything bad I have been thinking all
these years. Your efforts to save some people from this morass are to be
applauded. My brother has been involved for 15 years or so, is totally
brainwashed and has said countless times to me, when queried as to his
success, that he "had been doing it wrong but was doing it right now". No
doubt because he had bought some new tape or book or had gone to some
seminar or class. Of late I see some desperation creeping into his life as
he hates the real job he is forced to work to pay his bills because Amway is
failing him (he won't admit this of course). If he had put 1/2 the effort
into a real new career that he has put into Amway he would have left this
problem behind long ago, but, he has been swindled and ripped off and
doesn't know it. I worry that this is all leading to a BAD END and I realize
that I am powerless to change it as he is a TRUE BELIEVER. Every person that
your page helps convince to avoid this evil bloodsucking parasite of an
organization is a feather in your cap and I thank you for your efforts!!
Fri, 10 Mar 2000
Subject: Another story about a loser...
Oh my Gosh,
My husband and I have spent 4 years pursuing our fortune only to go into a
debt that forced us to claim bankruptcy. We always felt pressured to
finance
something ourselves and finance for downline so that my upline would hit
their goal. We were told that my downline would do the same for us went it
was our turn to go direct, which never happened. There are several calls I
will make to people that are no longer active in our downline to apologize
for some things I said to them to get them to a major function, like sell
your furniture, you''ll get it back someday.
Our friends and family were isolated for the years while we were busy
cloning
other people. A few examples of the business before family are: We were
ridiculed because we didn't go to our Double Diamonds house because we
didn't
want to miss our nieces graduation from high school. Our upline asked their
upline what they should do when my husband's mother passed away, go to the
funeral or show plans. Did they have to ask? Two weeks after my daughter
was
born I actually felt guilty for not going to a major function across the
country because my upline had to ask her upline what I should do....Looking
back it is very obvious that I shouldn't have gone, without a doubt, duh!!!
(I didn't go by the way) I just heard from my downline that her new
prospects were told not to go to a church retreat but to come to a seminar
instead.
The pressure to succeed was so stressful that it was the only thing that
occupied my brain for 4 years.
Because we were involved for so long, we are having a hard time
disconnecting
ourselves from the business. Our upline went as far as to say that the
devil
is turning us away from the business. The guilt trips are endless. They
are
even getting our downline involved in this process. I am so thankful that
we
stopped in time to get out before it was too late.
As I write this I am astonished at our behavior. We stayed friends with
people outside Amway by a thin thread and am very happy to say that they
hung
in there with us. I am sure when we tell them what has happened they will
all say we told you so. I am not looking forward to that.
We were very young at the time when we joined and were very green in a
business sense. We were very ripe for the picking. The only good that I
can
say we got out of the business is a lot of good reading material that taught
basic principals. Our future "traditional business" venture will benefit
from this. I am excited that my head is clear and am confident that our
future endeavors will be very successful. We will be walking the beaches of
the world (lame saying) with our family probably sooner than most of the
people still stuck in the business. I am proud to be a quitter and a loser
at the Amway business.
Your site is the only site that that I have seen that is very honest. I
like
that you post every email you get verbatim whether positive or negative.
You
have a gift of gab, too! Keep it up.
Wed, 15 Mar 2000
Subject: Finished your Amway story...
Thanks, I didn't want to do Amway in the first place. They have a new
division (??) out, N21 (Quixtar). I didn't know it was Amway 'til I
clicked around some. I will tell my own "Ted" to get a life, but I
don't care what he does, as long as he doesn't come around here any
more.
Thu, 16 Mar 2000
Subject: Your Amway page...
Dear Sir,
I invite you to look a new way of network marketing. NO-This does not
involve selling soap products or similar items. Instead it takes only the
network concept into consideration, As in networking of the internet.
Perhaps you or someone you know is interested.
Take a look at my web site and feel free to let me know your thoughts.
Sat, 18 Mar 2000
Subject: Your Amway page...
I tried to pull up pages from your site but had no success.......I am very
interested in telling someone of the perils of Amway and it's online
sibling,
sister, subsidiery or whatever you want to call it............Quixtar. I
would really appreciate any information you could send me or tell me how to
access the information on your site. Thank you, from a concerned
individual.
Sat, 18 Mar 2000
Subject: My reply to your Amway page
Hi - good to see your page up. You have a lot of very factual information.
I will add my two cents worth. I am currently a Founders Platinum
distributor (highest pin received, in 9/98, but did not requalify in F/Y
99). Have been in for 5 years, went silver after 11 months, PSDD 8 months
later, broke a PSDD 1 year later - no residual income to worry about there -
we only had 2500 side volume one time that they were at 7500. Have been at
2500 - 4500 PV for over a year. Have done 30 plans/month 4 times, sponsored
24-28 personally. Will not put my uplines names in for fear of losing the
bonus checks currently coming in (last month about $550.). I am currently
not active with STP or assisting downline. For the first time in over 5
years I have evaluated this as a business, and not just based decisions on
emotion. I have an business degree and extensive business experience, but I
too was sucked in. This message is not sour grapes about the business as a
whole. There are some very good things that I would not have learned
without my exposure to Amway. BTW - if anyone says Quixtar is not Amway,
they are full of crap. That is a word game. Quixtar orders come from Amway
service centers, for example. It is simply to say that I would evaluate it
as a business, get hard substantiated facts, and not get pulled into the
emotion of the 'system'. You will likely lose objectivity and regret it at
some point, unfortunately after substantial losses of time, reputation and
money, at least. I could post things about the cult nature of this
'business' but do not have the time. My wife and I are safely on the
sidelines, confident that the decision to not build anymore is the moral and
ethical one. We have personally sponsored CPA's, doctors, very smart people
who have been lured in - but they are not around anymore. You just have to
wonder - why is Amway's volume dropping like a rock, but their prices keep
going up, website is declining in terms of unique visitors, etc. And all
this after 1 year of knowing about Quixtar - unfortunately, I believe Amway
could have been a good thing, but the AMO's have corrupted it. They are
their own worst enemy. Like I said, I could tell you about the cult tactics
that are employed - truly unbelievable, but true. Just thought I would
throw my message in.
Sun, 19 Mar 2000
Subject: Amway feedback
Thank YOU!!!!!
I can't say it loud enough. I was on the verge, I mean very close, to
signing up. You story has completely changed my mind----Thanks again
Tue, 21 Mar 2000
Subject: My reply to your Amway page
After 3 years of NOT going to Amway functions, here is an update on my
life:
1) There is money to go on REAL vacations now; not just a day or two in
San Francisco planned around an Amway function.
2) I am getting married to someone who is now out of Amway (I would not
have married him if he was still active in Amway!)
3) We are buying a house and making a future based on our jobs and home
investments; it's funny how his YEARS of work in Amway didn't produce
anything for our future; we just have his debt from Amway to overcome.
And yes, he was in for years, yes, he went to ALL the functions, yes, he
was core and believed in Amway, and worked VERY hard at it, and built a
big down line. Where did it all go? Hmmm.
4) I continue to enjoy my time with my grown son and family as I did
while he was growing up. My fiance is finding out what happens when you
don't spend time with your kids and for years run off to Amway meetings
- he is finding out EVERY SINGLE DAY and it's too late to go back and
fix it ...
5) I don't have business attire clothes in my closet that I don't wear
anywhere else.
6) I don't have that feeling in the pit of my stomach anymore that
something is wrong with Amway but I can't quite put my finger on it. I
no longer have to wonder why they don't take more breaks at Amway
meetings, offer reasonably priced food anywhere close to the meetings,
offer water so you can replenish yourself when needed. I always thought
that Amway just hadn't figured it out yet. Or it was too expensive (to
offer free water??) ... And I don't have to wonder why the music they
play at the events is so loud, REALLY LOUD, oh, and the flashing
lights. And why the meetings last so long ... And why no one says
ANYTHING negative about Amway who's a member of Amway ... Just a
coincidence, right? I was born at night, but it wasn't last night!!!!
7) Funny how I am STILL waiting for the Amway people to retire from
their jobs once their Amway businesses take off ... and they don't
continually mention their retirement date like they used to ...
8) Funny how several of the upline are now divorced and their Amway
business never gets mentioned ...
Once in awhile I go back and read the Amway pages; what I read now is
what I read a couple years ago. Nothing has changed. My advice - listen
to your inner voice when you feel something isn't right; be careful when
you drive after a major function because you will be surprised at how
your body will react to what it just experienced, and listen to your
spouse or partner if they disagree with you over Amway - if you want
them in your life forever; and set a checkpoint every 6 months (or less)
to review your Amway business - how much money have you made up until
this point?, how much money have you spent up until this point, are you
closer now to your spouse or further from them?, how about your kids?,
are your friends avoiding you because of Amway? Are all your friends in
Amway or do you have other outlets? Is your mind consumed by Amway?
I DO understand why you have taken so much time and energy to post your
site. I only wish everyone did. Thank you for taking your precious
time to try to educate and help people. It really makes a difference.
May God bless you
Thu, 23 Mar 2000
Subject: Web Page -Amway - Nice!
I truly enjoyed reading your story on your website. I joined the Way about
4 years ago and practiced it for about 2 months. I did the math and it
didn't add up for me so I stopped participating. The only problem was my
boss got me into the biz. Since I was so adamant about the business not
helping me in life, etc. I think I influenced him and his wife enough to
stop too.
Anyway, it was a great pleasure to read your story. It was well written,
and you were quite objective. I am 24 years old and I work at CBS as a
financial systems programmer. So I can relate entirely to your feelings in
the story.
Great work
Fri, 24 Mar 2000
Subject: you reached me!, Phil failed
"You WILL fail," he said with mock confidence. "And you'll fail for the same
reason that these HACKS that you listened to were failing. The internet,
hah! You'll never reach anybody that way." Phil
Hey friend here I am, and let me tell you that I was enrolled and I lost
$200, I thank God I got rid of those lunatics. I am from Mexico living in
Madison, WI and AMWAY is everywhere, I found you on the Internet to prove
that Phil is wrong, I am responding to you and I will send your website to
all my friends.
My best wishes and congratulations!!
Sat, 25 Mar 2000
Subject: Finished your Amway story...
Thanks ! - Most interesting.....
I havn't bothered to check the pro side but found sufficient material in
your story to satisfy my curiosity. Well done....and I hope the text remains
available for other interested parties for some time to come.
Regards
Sat, 25 Mar 2000
Subject: Your Amway story (part 3)
Hi,
I found your home page very informative. I recently had a coworker try to
get some of us at work to sign up...what appeared to me to be a pyramid scam
in disguise. I have read articles and have seen some programs on such
manipulative ventures before, so I recognized it first hand when he was
trying to get us to sign up. However, when I suggested to the coworker that
this was a modified pyramid scam...Details: pay $400 for your "own business"
which basically consisted of having people click onto a virtual mall through
your "business page/homepage"...consisting of a binary system (aka pyramid)
in which you would get a check sent to you for $100 for every person you
signed up...etc..etc....to do the same....
My coworker seemed disgruntled when I asked specific questions about the
offer... why anyone would want to take a detour to my homepage when they can
access the same virtual mall through the upper layers of the "pyramid"
(other members homepages) or simply by doing a search...Seemed like a scam
to me...
Kinda like the ones where you sell someone discount cards..and for every
card you sell you get a kickback...I think there are so many altered
versions of the pyramid scams....and the only ones who truly benefit are the
ones on the upper levels who thought up the schemes....
My coworker used demotional terms...and subtle digs to try and belittle
me...like saying in the middle of a sentence that I was closed minded or
didn't know what I was talking about...You understand he didn't say it
directly but tried to say it without me hearing him...Like a true sales
pitch...I wonder if this is learned or if they teach these manipulation
techniques in those seminars....but yet he could not answer the simplest of
questions regarding the...um..."business venture"...And even referenced
Amway as doing so well as a pyramid...hmmm pretty sure I saw a special on
Amway being investigated....lol....but once again....he acted like I was too
young to know what I was talking about....And well..if he hadn't pissed me
off I probably wouldn't have mentioned the company policy against
solicitation...At least he quit trying to pitch the
pyramid...um...venture....lol
I am very good at reading people...and I found it very interesting that the
other people in the group didn't see how he would run around their questions
or not answer them...I was wondering if you had similar selling techniques
used on you...to get you to sign up....
Seems like an altered form of mind control..I read your signs of a cult..and
the techniques he used to bait people..came to mind....
But ya know what....this chick wasn't biting....
Thanks for the article...loved it...
Sat, 25 Mar 2000
Subject: Your Amway story (part 3)
Very interesting
Sun, 26 Mar 2000
Subject: My reply to your Amway page
Hi
I am from Tasmania and Ihave laughed myself to tears reading some of
your mail.
My recent experience of an amway ambush was when a nice customer of mine
casually told me that he had finally discovered a way of making lots of
money.
Of course I suspected Amway but he insisted that it wasnt, then finally he
asked me to his house one evening when all would be revealed.
As I approached the house I could see through the living room window that
there was a woman sitting on the sofa, a person that I had never seen
before.
As soon as I entered the room I knew I was gone, but ,hey I liked this guy,
so I put up with all the bullshit and behaved in a adversarial way somewhat
belligerent at times, because I was pissed that this man had set me up.
The couple are no longer in amway,sadly because Amway caused me to lose a
nice customer,not as a result of the ambush but the man kept dealing at my
business, and hassling my staff member to join Amway. The poor boy was
starting to dodge this guy, and then I stepped in telling him to back off on
the Amway, Needless to say that was the end of our relationship
The silly thing is that Amway has some good products,like window cleaning
stuff.but why the crap. Then
finally another Amway man calls to see if I want some stuff for cleaning
windscreens which I did, then noticing he was driving a fairly humble older
car I asked him how business was, Terriffic he says .
Then I say to him "If business is that good how come you are not driving a
Porche ? " I havent seen him since.
Mon, 27 Mar 2000
Subject: Finished your Amway story...
yes i actually read your whole story and to put it midly it was something.I
came onto to the idea of amway through my girlfriend in India(yes they are
everywhere) who made me a co applicant or something,gave me no. and asked me
to contact someone in ADA MICHIGAN.Ofcourse being a graduate student like
you i was imm. suspicious and started searching the web for amway
info.Luckily I founded a couple of sites(like yours )which only strenghtened
my suspicious.
Thanks for spending your time and putting up your site.
Tue, 28 Mar 2000
Subject: Ginny's Amway story (part 3)
im not in amway and i feel sorry for you, you are a person who likes to put
the blame on anyone but yourself, you joined amway, you went to the
conferences when you had no money, and you were obviously not a good sales
person for the amway business.I have friends in amway they do act like you
did, they have never prospected me, and they are starting to make good
money. Stop blaming amway start looking at yourself. If im a manager for
Coles or Coke or Mc Donald's and see things I dont like about the people I
work for or the ethics they display, does that mean I need to become like
them..........no.........do I quit my job............no. What I do is
continue working and display my own ethics. You seem to me to be a " poor me
" person, "amway didn't work for me and I was almost killed in a car crash
because of amway" ( was your down line telling you to drive when you tired
to, or could you do stupid things like that yourself ) "amway made me leave
my child " gee lady get a life, every boss in the world will push you, they
all want to make money off you ( as you make money from working for them ),
its up to you to say no my child is more important to me than this
business......actually im in this business so that my child can see more of
me not less of me.
Mon, 27 Mar 2000
Subject: Finished your Amway story...
Great story...it changed my mind for good. It all sounded like it might be
a scam and careful research on the internet has confirmed that. Thanks for
taking the time to set things straight.
Tue, 28 Mar 2000
Subject: Your Amway story (part 2)
Thank you for your web site.
I had been dating a man and he asked me to come to a meeting for his
"business" like a fool I went. I know something wasn't right when they told
me I couldn't talk to some people unless they talked to me. Now I'm a red
head and if you tell me not to do something I will do it .... Twice.
I have just started college again after 6 years off and the last thing I
needed to hear was that I am a looser and a fool for thinking that college
was going to help me.
When he told me about all the tapes he has bought I looked at him in
disbelief. I asked him who made the tapes. For some reason he cant
understand that the tapes, books, and such are how the people have gotten
there money.
I was happy to get some numbers on the amount of people that make money. It
sure is a sad state of affairs over there in amway country.
He asked me to look at there web site. I told him I would and I did. But
when I look into something I look at the entire thing! Which is what brought
me here.
Thank you again for you site I learned a lot. I will visit it again.
Tue, 28 Mar 2000
Subject: My reply to your Amway page
Russell.
Wish I had read your story back in '96 when I got in. Left in '97, a little
poorer, but a whole lot wiser.
Tue, 28 Mar 2000
Subject: My reply to your Amway page
Hi Russel,
I have just read about your fascinating story, and I can tell you that I was
quite amazed to hear about all the manipulation, greed and deceit within the
Amway company. My dad is selling Amway, and right from the start I had
doubts about this venture. It seemed like he was always off at a "meeting"
or discussing things with his up-line. I will definately pass this info to
him, and hopefully he might realize what this company really is.
Thanks so much for your thoughtfullnes!
Wed, 29 Mar 2000
Subject: Amway more dangerous than I thought.
Russell, after my Ambot brother (Harvard math/computer genius with over 25
yrs. in Amway, but not a penny to show for it) cut off all contact with me
because I accept the scientific evidence for evolution, I decided to do a
little web research to see where this medieval creationist insanity was
coming from. I should have guessed. Here, for your non-amusement, is the
horrible evidence.
------------------------------------------------------------------
The Van Andel Creation Research Center
A Unique Creationist Resource
John R. Meyer
CRSQ 36(2): 68-71
Almost since the beginning of the Society, it was recognized that
we needed a research center for the pursuit of origins’
studies from a creationist perspective. Unencumbered by operation
within a prejudicial, evolutionary-oriented government or state
university, it had long been felt that an independent creationary
research center, which was dedicated to quality field and
laboratory research, could effectively challenge the evolutionary
establishment through the pages of the Creation Research Society
Quarterly (CRSQ). Nearly twenty years ago the first steps in this
direction were taken with the purchase of land in North Central
Arizona. Over the years, this property was slowly developed as
funds allowed. We were committed to “pay as you go”
type financing, so development was slow. A little more than seven
years ago, the Jay and Betty Van Andel Foundation provided the
funds to buy additional property and to develop a facility, which
carries their name. We now have a beautiful and functional
Research Center which is providing a growing number of papers for
the CRSQ.
The Van Andel Creation Research Center is located on five acres
fronting U.S. Highway 89, five miles north of Chino Valley,
Arizona. This well-situated property is in the desert grasslands
of the upper Sonoran biological province and the geological
transition zone of Northern Arizona. It is surrounded by a large
number of interesting volcanic features and is located close to
the heavily-mineralized areas of Mingus and Bradshaw Mountains.
The Mogollon Rim, eight miles to the north, marks an abrupt change
from the Colorado Plateau to the transition zone of North Central
Arizona. The property is about a mile from the confluence of
several major drainage areas and the headwaters of the Upper Verde
River.
The main research building is a 3,000 square feet frame structure
with a large porch, which provides protection from the Arizona sun
(Figure 1). It is composed of two offices, a reception/library
room, a biology/chemistry lab, an electronics lab (which houses
the Stardust meteor observatory), two wet labs, a workshop for
fabrication and repair of equipment, a visiting scientist’s
quarters, and a small kitchenette.
[Meyer1]
Figure 1 - VACRC Main Research Building
The new research greenhouse is designed with two separate rooms,
each with independent environmental control systems. It will be
used for studies relating to intelligent design characteristics in
plants and for projects evaluating the limits of the Genesis kinds
in the modern plant world. This building is a 1,100 square feet
structure with polycarbonate glazing (Figures 2 and 3).
[Meyer2a]
Figure 2 - Greenhouse (Color Photo)
[Meyer3]
Figure 3 - Environmental Controls
The new Publications Building provides room for all aspects of our
literature outreach (Figure 4). It currently stores all back
issues of the CRSQ (about 40,000 copies) and all creation books
and tapes that we handle. Last year we shipped materials to twenty
different countries. Considerable expansion of CRS publications
outreach is now possible. The building is divided into three
separate rooms. One is for book and journal storage; one is a
packing and shipping room; and one serves as a double-car
garage/storage area for larger items.
[Meyer4]
Figure 4 - Publications Building (Color Photo)
In addition to the visiting scientist’s quarters, we have
facilities available for two long-term recreational vehicle
hookups for visiting scientists and workers. A new motel is being
built in nearby Chino Valley and can provide for additional
short-term housing as needed in the future.
Major research equipment at the Research Center includes a Hewlett
Packard gas chromatograph, various light microscopes, a scanning
electron microscope, microscope slide preparation equipment, a
modestly-equipped electronics shop, a partially- equipped
mechanical shop, an analytical balance, and a lab rock crusher. We
also inventory various types of centrifuges, lab ovens, computers,
and an astronomical telescope for educational purposes (Figure 5).
Our research library includes more than 3,000 technical scientific
works and 500 reprints, written both from the creationary and
evolutionary presuppositions. We also have a fine collection of
past creationist works of great historical and scientific value. A
recent donation from a church mission group has provided seven
additional shelving units which will be a great help in the
library.
[Meyer5]
Figure 5 - Astronomical Telescope
Some of the current projects under development at the Van Andel
Creation Research Center include the Stardust meteor observatory,
currently collecting data on an average of 3,000 meteor falls per
day (Figure 6). Our stalactite research project will undergo
considerable redesigning this summer and should be fully
operational by early fall (Figure 7). A number of plants are
currently under cultivation in the greenhouse in studies relating
to taxonomy, limits of the Genesis kinds in the modern world, and
intelligent design characteristics in the plant world. Continuing
studies on ring muhly grass and lichen growth rates are being
conducted on undisturbed areas at the Research Center.
[Meyer7]
Figure 6
[Meyer8]
Figure 7 - Stalactite research project (Color Photo)
Future projects will likely include the influence of carbon
dioxide enhancement on plant growth, the genesis of
thermoregulation in honey bees, fossils of the Coconino sandstone,
biochemistry and taxonomy in pine trees and the genesis of
multiple yearly tree rings of bristlecone pine trees.
The Van Andel Creation Research Center is strategically located in
or near a very large variety of biological and geological areas of
great importance to the creationist position. The Grand Canyon,
just two hours to the north, is perhaps the most geologically
interesting area in the U.S. A wide variety of biological habitats
is relatively easy to access from the Research Center. Both high
altitude montane communities and Sonoran Desert Saguaro cactus
communities are within a two-hour drive.
A growing number of school and church groups are visiting the
Research Center (Figure 8). While we are not a museum, we can
provide an exciting look into the ongoing research projects which
relate to scientific and Biblical creationary studies.
[Meyer9]
Figure 8
The Research Center now represents a creationist asset of great
significance. With the Lord’s guidance, we have assembled an
outstanding facility. While we are always short on equipment, our
next major challenge will be to staff the Van Andel Creation
Research Center with full-time scientists and technicians to face
the challenge of evolutionary teaching in the next millennium
(Figure 9).
[Meyer10]
Figure 9
For a more detailed description of the Research Center, available
facilities and equipment, accessible field research sites, and
potential projects please write, e-mail, or telephone us.
In funding the Van Andel Creation Research Center buildings, Mr.
Van Andel said his goal was “to give creationists a fighting
chance.” With his generosity and the partnership of hundreds
of creationists from all walks of life, this is being done. As we
face the future together, we invite the support of a growing
number of creationists to partner with us in one of the greatest
enterprises of the coming millennium—to challenge the theory
of evolution at the technical level, to develop a positive
creationist model of origins, and to use this as a basis for world
outreach through creation evangelism.
Since this is a spiritual battle, we covet your prayers and
personal encouragement. Since scientific research is expensive, we
need your financial support through regular giving and through
planned gifts, trusts, and wills. Since we are involved in
technical research, we need the assistance of highly-trained
scientists who are dedicated to the Creator and His work.
For those preparing for retirement, we remind you that the
Prescott area is usually listed as one of the top retirement hot
spots in the U.S. We can provide opportunities for significant,
meaningful, volunteer technical work for those scientists and
others with vital skills who may retire to this area.
We are extremely grateful to the Jay and Betty Van Andel
Foundation for capital developments at the Research Center. Their
continued support of the work has changed the course of
creationist history. In addition, our many members and friends are
providing increasing levels of support as we face the new
millennium. Our sincere thanks goes to all of our friends and
supporters for their key roles in the development of this superb
Research Center. Not everyone can perform field and laboratory
research and publication, but partnering together, we have made a
significant impact on the evolutionary humanism that pollutes our
culture.
Members and friends who are visiting Northern Arizona are invited
to visit the Research Center. Our guests find the work we do to be
an interesting part of their visit to this area. Those who have
sacrificed to support our work will have opportunity to examine
the results of their partnership with us.
[Image]
[Image]
Email: vacrc@creationresearch.org
Contact: Dr. John Meyer
phone: 520-636-1153
6801 N. Hwy 89
Chino Valley, AZ 86323-9186
USA
[Image]
[Image]
P.O. Box 8263
St. Joseph, MO 64508-8263
[Image] [Image][Image][Image]
Text documents in this archive Copyright © 1975-1998,
Creation Research Society. Please direct questions
relating to the content of these files, and official CRS
business to the Creation Research Society by e-mail
at [contact@creationresearch.org]. (This e-mail address
is for CRS-related correspondence only. Unsolicited bulk
commercial e-mail to this address is not acceptable, and
permission is not granted to include this address or
others on this WWW server in any for-profit list of
e-mail addresses automatically or manually harvested
from WWW sites.)
Problems with this Site? Contact the Webmaster
Tuesday, April 04, 2000
Subject:
Re: Amway more dangerous than I thought.
Interesting. And it doesn't surprise me at all. When someone suppresses
science and critical thinking in one aspect of their life, it is likely that
they will close it off in other areas too.
Sunday, April 02, 2000
Subject:
Finished your Amway story...
My Dear,
YOUR STORY WAS REALLY INTERESTING. ACTUALLY I ALSO PUT LOT MANY
QUESTIONS IN THIS BUSINESS AND DID NOT GET ANY SATISFIED ANSWER. BUT
STILL I WANTED TO JOIN THEM THINKING THAT I AM NOT GOING TO LOOSE
ANYTHING AS YOU THOUGHT. BUT YOUR WRITING GAVE ME A VERY CLEAR PICTURE
WHICH I WAS EXPECTING.
THANKS A LOT . I WILL NOT MEET THESE BUGGERS ANYMORE.
YOUR WRITINGS MAY HELP LOT OF PEOPLE IN THIS WAY.
AND I HOPE THAT YOU WILL BECOME A GREAT MAN BY YOUR OWN TALENT IN THE
YEARS TO COME.
GOOD LUCK.
BYE
Monday, April 03, 2000
Subject:
Finished your Amway story...
Russell,
I will not write much now but I wanted to relate my experience or should I
say "near experience" with Amway. (Actually, it is Quixstar, started by the
same people that brought us Amway.) I am scheduled to "join" today at 11am
with my "upline". Even after weeks of being skeptical and indecisive, I
somehow decided to join after a final meeting that had me "gung-ho".
I had searched the web for any information regarding Amway, whether it be
positive or negative. Needless to say, I found virtually nothing save for
their web-site and a few other "pro-Amway" sites. Yesterday (as I write it is
now Monday, the day I am to sign on) I decided to search the web one last
time. I decided to use a different search engine, using Alta Vista. I came
across your site and I can only imagine the amount of time and frustration,
not to mention money and personal relationships, you have saved me.
Everything you had written expressed my thoughts and concerns. Even if I did
become very wealthy, would I really have a sense of accomplishment? Would I
truley be doing something I loved? No.
It's amazing how all they talk of is money, whether its the tapes or the
meetings where they manage to builds one's excitement without one knowing
exactly it is he or she will be doing.
I can't thank you enough.
Tuesday, April 04, 2000
Subject:
Re: Ginny's Amway story (part 3)
im not in amway and i feel sorry for you, you are a person who likes to put
the blame on anyone but yourself, you joined amway, you went to the
conferences when you had no money, and you were obviously not a good sales
person for the amway business.I have friends in amway they do act like you
did, they have never prospected me, and they are starting to make good
money. Stop blaming amway start looking at yourself. If im a manager for
Coles or Coke or Mc Donald's and see things I dont like about the people I
work for or the ethics they display, does that mean I need to become like
them..........no.........do I quit my job............no. What I do is
continue working and display my own ethics. You seem to me to be a " poor me
" person, "amway didn't work for me and I was almost killed in a car crash
because of amway" ( was your down line telling you to drive when you tired
to, or could you do stupid things like that yourself ) "amway made me leave
my child " gee lady get a life, every boss in the world will push you, they
all want to make money off you ( as you make money from working for them ),
its up to you to say no my child is more important to me than this
business......actually im in this business so that my child can see more of
me not less of me.
I just want to mention that this letter was decked out with all kinds of different fonts and colors, like the sender
has just found a new menu in his email program and can't wait to try it out. For some reason I find this hilarious.
Tuesday, April 04, 2000
Subject:
Amway argument suggestions
I'm not going to argue with you I only want to say that I'm an Amway IBO
because I'm sick of being told when I can go on holidays, how much time I
can go for, how much my time is worth, what time I start work and when I
finish. I could go on but I won't. Besides all that what's wrong with having
a dream to make a better life for my family. What if I works and I do become
a diamond is there anything wrong with that. I'll probably be able to give
some of my money away to a worthy cause that I can't help much now.
P.S I'm still have close friends and relatives outside Amway.
Your comments would be appreciated.
Have a great day
Wednesday, April 05, 2000
Subject:
My reply to your Amway page
Hi, Russell. I've written to you a time or two before, and I've just now
gotten caught up on the e-mail replies to your page.
There was one letter, sent from someone calling himself "Henderson
Enterprises," dated 12/29/99, that you didn't take the time to demolish.
Allow me.
Henderson identifies himself as "a Christian whose spiritual life is is
[sic] at the center of everything," but then goes on to reveal the extent to
which his Christian understanding has been mixed with, and compromised by,
"motivational" literature of the type that keeps Amway alive and late-night
infomercials airing.
For example, early on he uses the phrase "seeds of greatness." This is
the title of a motivational book by Dennis Waitley... not a bad one at that,
but a clue as to where this guy is coming from. Shortly later, he uses the
words "the perspective of abundance rather than the perspective of lack."
This is pure Tony Robbins, or "Dr. Teeth," as I refer to him. Robbins, as
seen in endless, tiresome late-night infomercials across the country, is the
purveyor of a simplistic feel-good "technology" (as he calls it) called
Neuro-Associative Conditioning System (or NACS), designed to make your
self-limiting problems go away instantly. At best... or worst... it makes
you THINK your problems are solved. It's a pricey pair of rose-colored
lenses.
Henderson says something about "prosper[ing] the way God intended." Says
who? God does not intend the same things in life for everybody, and it's
presumptuous and simplistic to say that he does. This phrase smacks of
something called the "gospel of prosperity," which mainstream Christianity
(of whatever denomination) considers to be a latter-day heresy. (Footnote:
"Heresy," by classical definition, is distorted Christianity. Judaism,
Islam, Hindu, Buddhism, paganism, etc., are not distortions of Christianity
but altogether different faiths, and therefore not heresies.) The
"prosperity gospel" is what got, for example, Jim and Tammy Faye Bakker into
scalding water.
Henderson follows through on this confusion of the Christian path with
the Amway method when he says Jesus "sponsored" his disciples! Well, he
certainly didn't send them out to draw circles and enjoy an exponential
growth of wealth and success. All but one of them, according to tradition,
died violently. And Christianity, under the Roman heel, was slow to catch
on: before Constantine made it the official religion of the Empire,
Christianity was considered a minor Jewish sect. As late as the fourth
century, Judaism considered Greco-Roman paganism, not Christianity, to be
its main rival.
"Saturation," Henderson claims, "has never been and will never be a
problem in this business." Depends what type of "saturation" you're talking
about. There's the saturation of as many people getting into the business
as are going to get in; there's the saturation of people (like me) who have
been in the business and know better than to go there again; and there's the
saturation of people who've never been in the business and are never going
to be. Taken all together, the number of prospects dries up.
"If," Henderson continues, "I never become a Diamond Direct in this
business (and that is clearly not an option here)..." What is the
antecedent of the word "that"? Becoming a DD, or not becoming? I think you
and I know the correct answer better than he does.
He continues: "I will still have impacted [sic; "impact" is a noun, not a
verb] my family and the lives of many, many people for generations to
come... What size ripple do I want to make? Do I want to make a small splash
in a small pond," etc. This is a particularly chilling choice of words,
since it brings to mind a haunting passage from Faulkner's novel Absalom,
Absalom!, as follows: "Maybe nothing ever happens once and is finished.
Maybe happen is never once but like ripples maybe on water after the pebble
sinks, the ripples moving on, spreading, the pool attached by a narrow
umbilical water-cord to the next pool which the first pool feeds,... let
this second pool... reflect in a different tone the infinite unchanging sky,
it doesn't matter: that pebble's watery echo whose fall it did not even see
moves across the surface too at the original ripple-space, to the old
ineradicable rhythm thinking Yes, we are both Father." I asked a
Vietnamese-descended friend of mine and she said this is as good a
description of the trans-generational workings of karma as she's ever heard.
So Henderson seeks to have this sort of effect: it's instructive to remember
that, in Faulkner's novel, the karma involved was bad karma, most easily
described as a family curse. A blind, determined dedication to Amway, as
we've seen, can ruin a family's finances, shatter a family's structure, and
do irreparable damage that the passage of generations can't undo.
Yet he accuses you of doing "irreparable harm to society" by
"discouraging" potential "leaders" with your site. He thereby pledges
allegiance to the core Amway stance that there is no success of any kind
outside Amway.
"JOBS," he claims, "are paying less for more of our precious time." I'd
love to see any kind of credible documentation for this assertion. This is
one of those breezy, common-knowledge claims-- like "the rich are getting
richer and the poor are getting poorer"-- that withstand no scrutiny at all,
and which are made by people who not only can't back them up, but see no
need to do so.
Henderson closes with the feel-good adage, "...whatever the mind of man
can conceive and believe, it can achieve. Anything less says that God's
word is false." Couple of problems. First, if by "God's word" he means the
Bible, it's worth noting that the Bible never refers to itself as God's
Word, but describes Jesus Christ as "the Word... made flesh." Second, the
Bible never makes any such statement about the mind of man. By contrast, in
the book of Genesis, when men arrogantly set out to build the Tower of
Babel, a tower which would reach to the sky, to aggrandize themselves with
no reference to God, God busted up the project. The lesson of this story is
the same regardless of whether you consider Genesis to be history or myth.
The attitude of the Babelites, and of Henderson in his statement, is what
the ancient Greeks called "hubris," and it's almost always the prelude to a
downfall. I anticipate the same outcome for Henderson; I don't really
expect him to write here to tell you about it; and I hope he learns to stop
trying to use God's name as a rubber stamp on his new-age feel-good
computations.
Regards, Russell and Ginny. I note you've moved from Ft. Worthless to
Austin. I'm still in Houston. Keep up the good fight.
Friday, April 07, 2000
Subject:
Re: My reply to your Amway page
Thanks for the help. I enjoy a good Ambot bashing now and then, but I don't
get around to responding to all of them.
> Shortly later, he uses the
> words "the perspective of abundance rather than the perspective of lack."
> This is pure Tony Robbins, or "Dr. Teeth," as I refer to him.
Ha ha! "Dr. Teeth" -- that's great! Have you read this?
http://www.miamiherald.com/content/archive/living/barry/archive/successnew.htm
> "Saturation," Henderson claims, "has never been and will never be a
> problem in this business." Depends what type of "saturation" you're talking
> about. There's the saturation of as many people getting into the business
> as are going to get in; there's the saturation of people (like me) who have
> been in the business and know better than to go there again; and there's the
> saturation of people who've never been in the business and are never going
> to be. Taken all together, the number of prospects dries up.
I've been saying this all along. Somehow they think that Amway will not be
"saturated" until every man, woman and child is assimilated into the
collective. Market saturation is in reality much more complicated than that.
> "JOBS," he claims, "are paying less for more of our precious time." I'd
> love to see any kind of credible documentation for this assertion. This is
> one of those breezy, common-knowledge claims-- like "the rich are getting
> richer and the poor are getting poorer"-- that withstand no scrutiny at all,
> and which are made by people who not only can't back them up, but see no
> need to do so.
Such glib language is, of course, far from uncommon from distributors. It's
hard to reconcile these claims with the news I hear about how there is a
tremendous labor shortage, and employers have to keep piling on benefits to
keep their talent from being recruited away. And it's difficult to believe
that living and working conditions now are worse than, say, the 19th century,
about which authors like Charles Dickens and Upton Sinclair wrote so vividly.
> Regards, Russell and Ginny. I note you've moved from Ft. Worthless to
> Austin. I'm still in Houston. Keep up the good fight. --Lyndon Joslin
Oh yeah. We've been out of Ft. Worthless for a year and I am SO glad. I only
had to endure that place for a year, but Ginny has been in that area for most
of her life. She didn't know what she was missing. We love Austin.
Thursday, April 06, 2000
Subject:
Ginny's Amway story (part 3)
Last night I was invited to a meeting; some guy starting this "private
franchising" business, an e.commerece business, looking to expand in
our area!
Wow, how lucky I am to be invited into such an opporunity.
It turned out to be
AMWAY!
AMWAY!
AMWAY!
But I didn't find that out until the end of the meeting.
This is the second time this has happened to me. But this time I was
seriously considering it. THANK GOD FOR WEBSITES LIKE YOURS. I know
to steer clear.
I am declaring war on cults. First it was Mormonism, and now Amway.
Thursday, April 06, 2000
Subject:
Finished your Amway story...
Just wanted to say thanks! You just saved me a lot of trouble.
AMSCAN
Friday, April 07, 2000
Subject:
Thanks
Russell,
Just read your Experiences and am thankful. Your quick-links won't work
so i couldn't e-mail you directly from the page ( my default mail isn't set
properly) Anyways, I feel compelled to write to you even though it isn't a
common practice of mine. It seems like Electronics stores are a haven for
amway recruiters, as I work in one. I set up a meeting with a " independent
distributor " as I thought the offer was too good to be true (which it is),
and recieved a cd-rom and 2, yes 2 audio cd's ( The cd told me the names
Amway and Quickstar, something I wasn't told by my "partner", but gave me
some leads to see if the prospect was viable). I was considering his
proposal after our meeting but was VERY skeptical. He was preaching wealth
and riches and speaking of other members with 'business sense' who have
virtually retired already. He was dressed like a bum. I am a second year
business student and I drive a car that puts his to shame. Anyways, I
reviewed the cd-rom, and I now Know he studied it to present these ideals to
me. There was no informational value to base a decision on. it was all
heresy. I still had no idea what the company was called or what my job would
be. Usually after a legitamite job interview you have a good idea what you
are getting into. I would rather go to church than to listen to those cd's.
Once I heard the company names it was straight to the web to find some
numbers. During out interview/meeting I talked of friends of mine, who he
instantly wanted to meet. His next meeting we planned turned instantly from
40 minutes into 2 hours of available time. I was only worth 40 minutes but
if more came to be indocturnated it might take 2 hours. I would never do
that to my worst enemy. I knew then it was a recruitment. Typical of a
pyramid. I thought he valued my sales skills and I might use them to become
a integral part of a business. Bullshit! I am not a fucking recruitment
officer. As a independant business owner, Why am i so reliant on other
people? Plus I can get my goods at a better price and quicker
(with reference to prices on website) These people I get involved will never
be my customers (clients).I could never profit off others misfortune as more
losers are created through this than winners. My in depth research on Amway
led me to you and I am glad you have this page. Many parallels have been
drawn in our situations. It's too bad so many people suffer for the good of
a few. At least drug dealers get arrested when they get caught spreading
their business. I can't believe this is legal!
(something many who profit off of Amway must think) I also think its so
amazing that I wrote so much. I wanted to thank you and tell you that I
Think your lone ranger campaign is working well. You have my full support.
I'm sure Amway provides its customers with a excellent service, but I have a
life I'm not willing to part with. Thanks.
P.S I have a meeting set up with him in a couple days to return the
material. He will leave feeling stupid. I have many questions he will never
answer (e.x. If this is such a good opportunity, then why are you sharing it
with me? If Bill Gates told everybody about his idea would he be where he
is?) If you have any suggestions or comments I could make to make this guy
feel dumb, please E-mail me ASAP. I have 1.8 days till I meet him. Thanks
again
Friday, April 07, 2000
Subject:
Your Amway story (part 2)
I backed up to get here I thought it may be a letter from the "upline" you
dealt with...
I enjoyed reading your story (yes I'm guilty - I read the whole thing). My
husband and I actually met thru Amway. We were both excited and looking
with hope to the future, our marriage is very happy today - but not because
of "Amway". And when we were doing it you couldn't have talked us out of
it - well maybe if we had read this very informative web page then.
It really is frightening how it really does take on every characteristic of
a cult, bottom line it is a cult. You know what is so frightening, a wife
speaker admitted they were a cult, but of course promptly went on to explain
why this was such a good thing and we were making such positive a
difference. We paid $70.00 per person just to have the opportunity to hear
that, I guess we were making a difference in their cash flow.
We were involve with people we thought were good honest upstanding people
and they were I guess, Just like my husband **** and I, just very gullible.
We got out. We still like the "core Amway" products, they are really good.
My parents were "tricked" into the new online business so we just order
products thru them, gives us a good deal and they don't waist their time
promoting the "Amway system".
The "system", is what is wrong, it has become this warped greedy thing. I
don't think Amway itself is necessarily "bad" but what the "distributors" do
is appalling, with the lies and trickery. We steer clear of those things.
It is good what you have done with this page I saw it right away when I
pulled up "Amway" on Yahoo. Maybe your once dream of making a difference is
really working.
I wanted you to know I respect and admire you for your wisdom to think this
out and not just jump into fire unwittingly.
Saturday, April 08, 2000
Subject:
Ginny's Amway story (part 3)
I wrote some of our stor in "Flame me Now" on Russell's page. I really can
relate to everything you said. I'm just so glad it's over and I hope
everone who even thinks of joining "Amway" reads this understands the truth
of what they are getting themselvs into. I always loved my upline Emerald
we were very close and now that were far from the business, I really feel
sorry for them and Hope they wise up soon, but I'm sure the $$ issue would
be too much for them to let go of.
God Bless You and Russell's marrage
**** & **** **** once 1000 pins
Friday, April 07, 2000
Subject:
Finished your Amway story...
Russell,
I found the link to your webpage on the Motley Fool's message
board dealing with penny stocks, investment scams and the
like.
Even though I have never had an interest in Amway or any other
MLM "opportunities", I thought that reading an insider's view of the 600
Lb. gorilla would be interesting. Your webpage did not disappoint.
"Getting poor slowly" seems to be a recurring theme in all these
MLM offerings. Mr. Barnum was right, there IS a sucker born every
minute (actually, I think it's down to every 30 seconds nowadays.)
I'm sure that even today you are still getting flamed from devotees.
I just wanted to throw in my two cents and applaud your efforts
at educating potential victims.
By the way, I loved the Borg references.
Saturday, April 08, 2000
Subject:
My reply to your Amway page
Loved it. Best page I have seen in a long time. I laughed when Phil
told you that you would never reach anyone on the internet. I bet that
popped back into your head when you heard about Quixtar. Best of luck
and I will bookmark the page.
Monday, April 10, 2000
Subject:
An absolutely great article -------!!!
Dear Russell - I have just spent the most enjoyable hour (or more) --
reading about your fascinating experience with Amway - your writing
style is absolutely terrific and just swept me along. I haven't been
able to read the epilogue yet - some problem with my network - but will
look forward to that as a very enjoyable dessert when I can get
connected.
How do I know about Amway? I had a call from my sister-in-law the other
evening - full of evangelical fire about me joining up with Amway - and
that she was "fed up with her unfruitful attempts in life to become
rich" - and now was the time to change. It was obviously much easier to
deal with my sister-in-law than a guy like Ted and I told her I didn't
need this - and wasn't interested. Life was fine as it is, and I didn't
need Amway to become a part of it but this didn't prevent her from
taking the tel. numbers of my two sons. Happily, their reaction was the
same as mine - highly skeptical about the whole thing. However, not to
be totally defeated, she is still, I believe, trying to line up a
demonstration evening with an Amway guy - and "won't this be a great
opportunity for Sylvain and Patrick (my sons) to see their grandfather
again!" (the latter only coming into Geneva on very rare occasions - and
with whom they have virtually lost touch). He has now apparently become
recruited into this thing by his daughter. Well, I guess we will all
have to get used to not seeing grandad for a long time because no way
will any of us be going to a demonstration.
Coming back to my first lines - I found your account of this affair
absolutely hilarious - spot-on in the dialogue field - articulate,
informative - brilliant, in fact. I also admire your courage in taking
the stand you have.
Hopefully you might be able to put your writing skills to use - and make
a LOT OF MONEY in subsidising your studies by writing a book on the
subject of the relentless pursuit of a large part of society in the
search for the quick buck (although in Amway's case it seems the buck is
distinctly a slow one - not to say illusory). And of course, I am
kidding - I don't think the making a "lot of money" is exactly your main
aim in life.
Maybe some people only feel secure within a cult-like set-up. The
aforesaid sister-in-law used to belong to a sort of community - where
you seemed to be tempting fate if you weren't dressed in certain colours
each week pertaining to the position of the planets in the sky - or
something. Since then and in an office job bored out of her life - no
doubt Amway is for her part of being part of a big family again with a
mission - a feeling of belonging to something. I think the driving force
for her is - "well, not only I will become rich myself, but I can make
all my family rich as well...this is going to make my life so much more
enriching and give me a real purpose". Well, that's my theory.
Thanks again for your wonderful piece of writing. I really did enjoy it.
regards
**** - in Geneva, Switzerland.
Monday, April 10, 2000
Subject:
Finished your Amway story...
Thank you. I have been listening to tapes and etc. for 6 years...they all
sound the same...I listen because my husband is playing them. I am glad to
know I am not a complete failure because I don't agree with the Amway way of
life.
Monday, April 10, 2000
Subject:
Your Amway page...
I was looking at your site, and wishing my brother had seen it before
he joined amway. He has left the catholic church, and now belongs to a
church that meets at his friends house. It strikes me as ood that all
the members of the church are amway members. Has amway started their
own church?
Wednesday, April 12, 2000
Subject:
Finished your Amway story...
dear russel
several of my patients are involved with Amway and out of interest i surfed
around and found your page. i found it a lucid intelligent exposition. i too
have been tackled by several people including the guy who moved house for me
once. it can certainly be alluring but ... not for too long
i think your comparison to a cult is quite accurate
well done
Dr **** ****
Shrink...although I prefer to think of myself as an "expander" (of thought)
rather than a shrink
Melbourne, Australia
Wednesday, April 12, 2000
Subject:
My reply to your Amway page
Russell,
I'm glad you sat down and took the time to write out your feelings
when you were mad. I think yours is a universal story that applies to
anyone who has ever been confronted by an Amwayite. I used to give
the company the benifit of the doubt by telling myself it was not fair
to judge the whole company by their bottom level recruits. I have now
realized that IS the company. Those recruits are doing exactly what
they are TRAINED to do. The fake interest, friendships, etc. are all
part of the company "personality." Your story has further illustrated
this.
Friday, April 14, 2000
Subject:
A funny Amway Mad Lib for you
I will pray for you.
Hey, that wasn't very funny.
Sunday, April 16, 2000
Subject:
Hi, I'm e-mailing from Italy.
I'm trying to get more info as I can, as on April 18th., I should give
a final reply to some people who are trying to involve me in a
project, so now I just explain you some things and I hope that you can
give me your suggestion very very soon.
When those people finally said to me that the project was managed by
Amway, I said "no thanks", as I know that it is saturated, but they
pushed me to believe, as they assert that soon the same Amway way of
make commerce, will be followed by most of the biggest companies, such
as IBM, SONY, managed by Amway people (of course).
So I don't have to sell shampoos to all my friends (who are probably
selling me some soap), but computers, mobile-phones, stereos, tv, cd.
Do you think is it possible?
SONY will let Amway manage their sales through interenet?
I have some doubts....
Please reply me, as I'm sure that in USA you have much more info about
this matter than in Italy.
Please try to use a simple language, you know I can't speak a good
english/american language.
Many many thanks.
Sunday, April 16, 2000
Subject:
Hi Russell
You've missed the opportunity of a life time, you should have went to a
rally, you would have really had something to write about. I did, twice. I
joined a month ago. Have already spent around three hundred dollars on
tapes, seminars, and books. Not to mention the $112 dollars to join. I
didn't investigate this thing at all before joining. It was presented to me
as an e-commerce business(Amway was never mentioned). My girlfriend joined
first and I'm her 2nd leg.
I was just flipping around in yahoo, and found plenty of inf.
on Quixtar(Amway) business. It's certainly not what they claim it is. I
showed her the material last night, with regret I might add( she was really
hoping this would be her ticket out of provety). I'm not sure if she's brain
washed too much now to stop her. And I'm not sure what our future is now,
because of the Amway commitment. It really does brain wash you in to
thinking like they want you too.
Don't get me wrong, these seemed like well meaning people and all where very
kind. And I was certainly getting motivated(trapped). I thought the rally
was about getting motivated(which I did) but the real reason was for the
emerald's and diamonds to make money on "tools" and there speeches! I
thought from the start, it was too deceptive in how they presented the
'plan'. And the products, well my upline couldn't afford to buy anything,
and now she's found out the only way to make money is you have to have
personnel volume(you have to buy products)!
Chalk this one up to experience!
Thanks for your story
Monday, April 17, 2000
Subject:
Amway Expose Fake it Til You Make It
Hi Russell, thanks for your efforts in presenting this site.
Scott Larsen's Little White Lies homepage has added a html
version of Phil Kerns' original Amway expose, Fake It Til You Make It.
Written in l982, it is still relevant to today's Amway and Quixtar
models. Phil Kerns' wrote a book called People's Temple, People's
Tomb; it is about the Jim Jonestown Cult and the mass suicide. Phil
quit the cult before the move to Guyana. He lost his sister and
mother in the mass suicide. Some years later his co-writer and friend
Doug Wead (yeah, that Doug Wead, Amway Diamond) sponsored Phil and
his wife into Amway with the hope that Phil would write a pro-amway
book and speak at many functions. Doug and company made it clear
that there was much money to be made from selling books, among
other tools. Phil took the high road and quit Amway and wrote
Fake It Til You Make It. Appearances on Donahue show with the
Rich Devos followed, as well as the infamous 60 minutes segment on
Amway.
Anyway, if you have not read the book, please do so and thanks again!
http://www.awod.com/gallery/rwav/slarsen/fake_it_intro.html
p.s. Can you please finish the John Sestina section and the Quixtar
section. Thanks in advance!
a true 'insider'
Tuesday, April 18, 2000
Subject:
Starting the business
Russell, I am in Botswana and intending to start the business and it is just
about to be introduced in May. I have read the story but my agument is that
if I happen to be one of the first to start the business in my country I
will be at the top of the pyramid here in my country which means I might get
quite some bucks. Will you advice me to continue or call it quit.
My other problem is that I am living in a small mining town right in the
middle of nowhere, and the towns that I will be operating on are 200 km away
but I have got so many friends and relatives in those towns, can it work. My
email address is ***@***.**
Tuesday, April 18, 2000
Subject:
Re: Starting the business
Call it quits, of course. Being in there first doesn't mean you'll
actually get a downline. Anyway, it sounds like you are fully aware
that the only way you can get rich is by robbing other people who get in
later and think they will be successful. In your case, it sounds like
you will be robbing your friends and relative. I wouldn't do that even
if I could, since I have ethics. But that doesn't mean you can't.
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