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Subject: Finished your Amway story... Mon, 02 Feb 1998 I enjoyed your story. You went farther than I did with Amway. I've never been able to sell anything and that's what bother me about Amway. When I told that to the person who gave me the tapes (my personal physician), he said Oh no, you don't have to sell any products. I pointed out I would have to sell the concept and amazingly, he agreed and didn't bother me anymore. I used to manage physician clinics and two of my doctors were into Amway. It really bothered me that they were going through their patient list for prospective downlines. Now my vet is calling me. What is it about Amway that attracts the medical profession? Has anyone ever done any research on this? Thanks for the story.
Subject: Your Amway story :) Tue, 03 Feb 1998 i thought your amway story was wonderful. the people i babysit for had tried to get me into the "business", and i had felt honored at first. then i saw what was in it for them, and how much time and $$ would be wasted on it. origionally, i thought it would be a good investment, but when they wouldn't loan me the $300 i needed to sign up, i knew i wouldn't have made any $$ because they knew they would never see their $300 again. my question though, is how come they keep doing it, even though they are not earning $$??? i mean, they don't need $ to begin with, he being a surgeon and she into real estate, but why do they keep spending $25/week on me babysitting, plus gas and car $$, plus their time (EVERY TUESDAY NIGHT) IF THEY ARE NOT MAKING $$??? THIS IS WHAT I AM VERY CONFUSED ABOUT, if you could write back i would appreciate it. thanks,
Subject: Your Amway story (part 3) Tue, 03 Feb 1998 Nice page. I totally agree. I did Amway for 2 years and made little money. With your bad experience, has thay kept you from looking into any other businesses?
Subject: Hilarious! Wed, 04 Feb 1998 I stopped by and read a bit here and there on your Amway page. The letters you get are just so funny! I don't understand why people freak out so much when something negative is said... then again, if someone dogged something I really loved and believed in, I'd freak out a bit I guess. Anyway, my point is this, my husband and I are Amway distributors. We like the products, what can I say? We don't go door to door or try to talk all of our friends into signing up. If someone asks about my soap, which a few have, I tell them where I got it. If they don't ask, why would I talk about it? We are a bunch of computer geeks too. My hubby is a Systems Engineer for a company, and up until Christmas I was a LAN admin for a high school. I have young children so I decided to stay home to be with them. I sincerely hope that you can get going in your own business. We need someone other than Microsoft!!!! Get as much education as you can, because it really makes a difference. It has with us. The rest of your site was great! Funny, creative, interesting..... you have a girlfriend right? Well, if you need a new one, I have a great friend (not in Amway hahahaha) that would just love you to pieces. Large pieces, you'd be able to be put back together easily I'm certain. She's 20, blonde, works at an ISP, is a Unix chick, and a complete wild woman at times. Blonde and brains? Whoa.... that never happens! Good luck Mr. Man, ***** (some weird red head chick in Utah that obviously has nothing better to do than e-mail complete strangers in the middle of the day and try get her cute friends set up with guys other than the jerks they have been dating *phew)
Subject: Your Amway story (part 3) Wed, 04 Feb 1998 Great essay. I'm losing my best friend to Equinox. He'll tell you it isn't anything like Amway but it's obviously exactly the same. He's only been in it a few months, (and about $20,000!), but it seems the earlier you can get someone out - the better. I've been researching material for days hoping to come up with some hard evidence and a good plan to get him out of this.
Subject: Scared of Amway too
Wed, 4 Feb 1998
I've just read your Amway page (glad I found it!). The trouble is, one of
my dearest friend's into "the business". I thought I'd search the web for
info on Amway (hoping too find something negative). After reading your
Amway page, some of her behaviors are understandable: the suit
deal*(explained below), the personal planner she and her husband carry
everywhere, the fact that she won't use anything but Amway--even makeup &
vitamins; they call it the "business", etc...
I want to print off everything (like your page) to show her, but I do not
know how to go about it. I really value our friendship, and I'm afraid if I
tell her "the absolute truth" about what I think of Amway, including
hundreds of printed material, I may get the same reaction that "Heather"
gave you, or worse. My husband tells me to say, "We are not interested in
Amway and don't ever want them doing a sales pitch on us". What should I
do?
Here's a little background for you (don't have to read it--it got long):
Even though I've been friends with "D" almost 4 years, she's never tried to
rope me or my husband into it. I've just heard about it, referred to as
"the business" (just like you say). Just recently, she'd been frantic about
buying a new suit for the next "meeting". She complained about not being
able to find one with a skirt (so what, huh?). I said "what's wrong with a
pants-suit?" She said, "well, it's really not considered professional..."
I joked, "what is this, the military? you can't wear a pants-suit? you guys
have uniforms or something?" She got defensive, of course.
Our friendship so far has been perfect up till this point. We both have
things in common, (stay-at-home moms; like to sew and craft; same political
views, etc.) and maybe she valued that friendship by not even trying to rope
us in. But since I started saying things, she's started to invite me to the
"meetings".
I asked her later how her meeting went, did she find her suit, etc.,
and she just couldn't get off cloud nine about "so-and-so", they are
renovating their home for $650,000, they were "diamonds" etc., and another
couple that spent $60,000 on a pond/gazebo ( I wasn't really paying
attention at this point). I joked, "so what level of the food chain are
they?" She was offended I could tell, but nervously giggled. I said, "I
just don't understand the system, I don't see how it works, it doesn't make
sense to me", but what I really meant was, "I know how it works, I just
can't believe that you can't see past this." She suggested that her husband
"explain things to me some night". I said " really didn't want to hear any
lecture on it, that I'm too simple-minded and will probably never figure it
out." I'm trying not to hurt her feelings/our friendship.
She's now asked me to attend a meeting next Monday. "Since you were
confused about what we're about....we're having an open meeting for new
people..." Fortunately, I had a tupperware party to go to! (and I usually
find reasons not to go to those!) She's talking about going to two meetings
this month to listen to the diamond guy (she "just loves listening to him
talk!"). We were supposed to do some craft shows in March, but she's going
to a "big" meeting in Nashville the first weekend (so I'll have to do the
show myself--her husband chastised her when she said she felt bad about this
and told her to"get her priorities straight").
What should I do? I really want to warn her about this stuff...
p.s. My husband's a computer programmer that eventually wants to form his
own company making games too! Is that every computer nerd's fantasy or
what!:)
Subject: Your Amway story (part 3) Wed, 04 Feb 1998 Russell, Beautiful, I have a friend I am trying to dissuade from joining Amway and I printed every page and sent it to him. He's only been contacted once so I hope I caught him in time. Thanks for the story!
Subject: Your Amway page...Here's A much better "True" Business...
Thu, 05 Feb 1998
Effective March '98, Electric Utility Monopolies will be dissolved on a
State-by-State basis
opening a $215 Billion Industry to free-market competition.
Imagine Utility savings of 10% to 40%!
And Electric Power is just the beginning...
[OBNOXIOUS SELF-PROMOTION DELETED!]
Subject: AMWAY Thu, 5 Feb 1998 Thank you for your information about Amway. They have been trying to recruit me and my boyfriend and everything you said about how they act is so true-it is scary.
Subject: Right On Brother!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Thu, 05 Feb 1998 Sir, You are right on when you make this argument against the monster called Amway and other MLM's. It's about time someone stands up and convinces the morons who waste their hard earned cash on worthless scams such as Amway. On the other hand. try to convince people who are trapped in the dreaded Shakley cycle. Shakley bases it's business plan on something called "health", or the vitamin debate. Most people who are involved in Shakley distribution believe that they are doing a good thing by pushing the Shakley product line, as Shakley sells health.
Subject: My reply to your Amway page
Fri, 06 Feb 1998
> Subject: my opinion
>
> Wed, 10 Dec 1997
>
> You should be more like Abe Lincoln and not criticize.
>
>
>
> What on earth did THAT mean? And what were the famous Lincoln/Douglas debates about if
> not criticism?
>
It means he read "Lincoln on Leadership" which was a recommended book
in some organizations awhile ago.
Subject: Re: My reply to your Amway page
Fri, 06 Feb 1998
Seth,
That's very interesting. Can you sum up the main point of this book?
I was serious about the Lincoln-Douglas debates, Lincoln was one of the
greatest critics in history I would have thought. As I remarked
somewhere on a subpage, think what it would have been like if he had
said "Well, slavery doesn't seem to work for me, but I'm sure it's fine
for other people!"
Subject: RE: My reply to your Amway page
Fri, 6 Feb 1998
The book's focus was Lincoln's leadership skills as President. The writer's
comments refer to Lincoln's restraint at criticizing his Generals during the
civil war.
Subject: Your Amway page...
Sat, 07 Feb 1998
This might interest you seeing as you're in the industry, and, as a
distributor, I "can't operate a computer to save my life." :-)
He sent me a pamphlet about how Amway is dealing with the infamous "year 2000 problem". I wrote back to tell him that's not my line of interest because I deal in multimedia and entertainment software, not business applications.
Why the distributor force needs to know this is beyond me. The strategy for transition should be transparent.
Subject: Amway page Fri, 06 Feb 1998 Just got back from my first Amway meeting. I have been propositioned by them for years ( I must have Amway sucker stamped on my face) so I went to see what it was like. I had a blast- they are the weirdest people that I have ever met (including people in the drama department and army paratroopers)- didn't join, wont join, but have to work with the guy who took me Keep the page up, couldn't have said it better myself
Coming up next: MATH WARS over whether Amway will ever really saturate, and whether it is perhaps already saturated! See the no-holds-barred grudge match between a computer science geek with three levels of calculus, and a guy who knows how to multiply and read propaganda! BE THERE!!!
Fri, 6 Feb 1998
Russell,
Well, where do we begin? I invested a bit of time reading your
"Perils of Amway" misinformation. Hopefully you'll pay me the same
respect. Just for the record I'm an engineering technician currently
working contractually at H.P. I previously worked in the computer
disk-drive industry for 11 years.
I am currently an Amway distributor, and no do not intend to try to
recruit you. I will not pretend that much of your story may not be
true, in fact I am sure much is accurate! However, we must understand
that even in the best organizations there are boneheads. You make the
common mistake of "throwing out the baby...".
It seems apparent that you have never studied 'success'. Listen to
ANY success motivation and you will find the same "dribble" and
'brainwashing' as you called it. Respectable AND successful persons
such as Steven Covey, Tom Peters, Anthony Robbins, Paul Zane Pilser,
Brain Tracy, Kevin Trudeau, Earl Nightingale, James K. Van Fleet, Les
Brown, Denis Waitley, Zig Ziglar, Tom Hopkins, Dale Carnegie, Les
Gibson, Napolean Hill, ... have ALL taught the very same things you
hear at a typical Amway seminar. Are THEY all deceived / brainwashed?
Hey, brainwash me all you want if I can achieve financial
independence!!! I've been fed enough negative crap all my life!
What's YOUR plan for success??? Who knows YOU, besides all the
others looking for a reason they can't succeed in life. The fact is,
success is UNPOPULAR. What percent of computer programmers make the
BIG money? A very SMALL percent! What is popular? JOBS, and who
benefits the greatest from getting everyone a JOB? Think about it!
Apply the same yardstick you do to Amway to where YOU work, or
ANYWHERE, and you'll see the same 'statistics'- Very few people make
the big money! But then very few people are willing to WORK for real
success no matter what vehicle you choose.
Find me a better corporation than Amway- you can't! Get the FACTS.
Here's one from social security: 97% of people age 65 or older are
BROKE!!! WHY? Because they preferred to listen to all the reasons and
excuses why they couldn't succeed. I'm sure HAD YOU LOOKED for them,
you could have found lots of people to tell you why going to college
was a waste of time and how you'd never make it. But you didn't
because you CHOSE NOT TO! But of course college is popular isn't it?!
Well, in closing, how much money have you made slamming Amway???
Don't you think you could find a more productive use of your time?
Here's something for you- A simple rebuttal of your ridiculous notion
that Amway could ever saturate, and I used outrageous numbers! Let me
know if you think it is mathematically flawed, OK? Be REALISTIC!
**********************************************************************
Will The Amway Opportunity Saturate?_Not Likely!
" The current world population is approximately 5.9 billion people.
" If only one-fourth of the world's population is available to
sponsor, that leaves approximately 1.5 billion available to sponsor.
" Amway is in more than 70 countries and territories worldwide!
" Amway has been in business since 1959. Almost 40 years!
" Amway currently has over 2 million total distributors worldwide!
" Amway has averaged a yearly sponsorship rate of approximately 55,000
distributors a year!
" If Amway Corporation begin growing by an incredible 55,000 new
distributorships A DAY (more than Amway's average yearly sponsorship
rate), it would take almost 75 years before the opportunity saturated!
However, the world population is growing by about 215,000 people a
day! Again, if only one-fourth of this population growth is available,
we have a sponsorable growth rate of more than 50,000 a day! That's
equivalent to creating about 50 Diamond Directs a day, and at this
rate the Amway opportunity would only be keeping pace with the
population growth!
So what's your real excuse?!
*********************************************************************
Fact is you can ALWAYS FIND WHAT YOU LOOK FOR! "Nothing is foolproof
to a sufficiently talented fool!"
I WISH YOU SUCCESS and hope you will wake up to the fact that
success IS peculiar. Do yourself a favor and stop wasting your
VALUABLE time slandering a good opportunity just because you don't
approve of it. Examine your motives. Are you really trying to help
people or just trying to lessen the pain of YOUR failure through
rationalization? God Bless America and those that have the guts to
prove the naysayers wrong!
P.S. Hope you have the guts to include this with your letters!
Subject: Amway saturation
Mon, 09 Feb 1998
I was sufficiently interested in your remarks about the potential
saturation of Amway that I felt compelled to reply. I want to discuss
your math methods and relate it to your vision of Amway's potential
future expansion.
Let me quote your argument in full so I can make sure I don't overlook
anything.
> **********************************************************************
>
> Will The Amway Opportunity Saturate?_Not Likely!
>
> " The current world population is approximately 5.9 billion people.
> " If only one-fourth of the world's population is available to
> sponsor, that leaves approximately 1.5 billion available to sponsor.
>
> " Amway is in more than 70 countries and territories worldwide!
> " Amway has been in business since 1959. Almost 40 years!
> " Amway currently has over 2 million total distributors worldwide!
> " Amway has averaged a yearly sponsorship rate of approximately 55,000
> distributors a year!
>
> " If Amway Corporation begin growing by an incredible 55,000 new
> distributorships A DAY (more than Amway's average yearly sponsorship
> rate), it would take almost 75 years before the opportunity saturated!
> However, the world population is growing by about 215,000 people a
> day! Again, if only one-fourth of this population growth is available,
> we have a sponsorable growth rate of more than 50,000 a day! That's
> equivalent to creating about 50 Diamond Directs a day, and at this
> rate the Amway opportunity would only be keeping pace with the
> population growth!
>
>
> So what's your real excuse?!
>
> *********************************************************************
To begin with, Amway's AVERAGE sponsorship level is simply meaningless,
because in theory Amway grows at an exponential rate. If Amway has had
an average sponsorship rate of 55,000 new members a year over 40 years,
then that most likely implies that there are double that, 110,000 per
year, by now.
The other mistake you made was overlooking the fact that if Amway's
growth is exponential as claimed, then it must grow not as a fixed rate
(such as 55,000 members every year from now on) but as a percentage of
the whole current Amway population. Out of 2.5 million distributors
worldwide, 110,000 represents a totall of 110000/2500000 = .044 = 4.4
%. In other words, if these numbers are accurate, each year Amway is
gaining 4.4% more distributors than it had the year before.
Fine. Now the question is, how fast does the population of the earth
grow? According to the world population estmiates by the US census
bureau (http://www.census.gov/ipc/www/worldpop.html), the average
population growth rate in the last 50 years has been 1.6%, the current
growth rate is 1.3%, and the highest it's been since 1950 is 2.19% --
not even half of what I just guessed as the exponential growth rate of
Amway.
Therefore, Amway's population is CURRENTLY outstripping the world
population, with no overestimates at all. (Of course 110,000 was a
guess, but even if it's still just 55,000, the rate is 2.2%, still
higher than the earth's growth rate.)
So for example, in 50 years, if both Amway and earth continue on their
paths, the earth's population will be a little over 9 billion (US census
bureau figures again) -- 50% higher than it is now. But Amway's
population would be (2.5 million * 1.044^50) = 21.5 million: EIGHT TIMES
bigger. Obviously if this continued indefinitely, Amway would saturate.
Now you're saying, "Look, Russell, even if Amway does saturate it'll
never be in my lifetime. So why worry about this?"
Good question, and the answer is: I honestly don't believe it will! I
never did. Am I being hypocritical?
Actually, there are two conflicting claims at work here. One is that
Amway will never saturate. The other is that everybody COULD make money
in Amway if they would only work hard enough.
Amway grows by 4.4 % each year? That's horrible news for
distributors. In order for a direct to be created (which purportedly
takes about six months) he has to go "me, you, 6 4 2", so that
distributor's group alone has to grow by 6*4*2 = 48. In the Amway
presentation, every distributor CAN be successful, but most don't
because they're lazy. Suppose that even one tenth of distributors were
capable of going direct, instead of the roughly 1.5% who do now.
Assuming each direct has a unique group, one tenth of Amway would grow
by a factor of 48 EVERY SIX MONTHS; but since directs above other
directs carry a piece of the lower groups, I'll be nice and divide that
by ten more, bringing it down to a factor of 5.
One tenth of distributors multiplied by five is 50%, plus the remaining
90% of distributors, for a total of 140% -- 40% growth every six months,
96% every year, which means that Amway has to almost DOUBLE every year
for even a tenth of distributors to go direct! And that doesn't even
consider whether anyone could ever go diamonds. Clearly this system
WOULD be saturated now, in a matter of 12 years. (1.96^12 * 2.5 = 8.03
billion, much more than the estimated population of earth at that time).
But it won't saturate. Because right now, one and a half percent go
direct, 1% of those go diamond, and the growth rate is slow and safe.
And if it was AT ALL POSSIBLE for a larger number of people to go
direct, then the sponsoring rate would explode and it would saturate in
very short order.
So it comes down to this: either Amway will saturate in a few years, or
the vast majority of distributors will fail and not get anywhere. Right
now, the latter happens to be the case, and it will remain so, because
multi-level marketing is an intrinsic failure of a business for the vast
majority of people who get involved.
Reply?
Subject: Saturation
Mon, 9 Feb 1998
Hi Russell,
Thanks for the reply! Did you fail to notice that I did my
calculations based upon a growth of ~55,000 new distributors a DAY?
That's equivalent to OVER 20 MILLION a year! If Amway begin growing
TODAY by this rate it would still take over 75 years to saturate ONLY
25% of the world's population, IGNORING 25% of the world's population
growth which is more than 53,000/day! (I ELIMINATED 3/4ths of the
population in my calculations) . How likely is a 20 million / year
growth, even with exponential growth?
In summary:
Current world population= 5,895,194,477 as of 2/9/98 at 1:10:57 PM EST
(http://www.census.gov/cgi-bin/ipc/popclockw). Let's say only 1/4 are
"sponsorable" (5,895,194,477 / 4)= 1,481,442,718 left.
At a growth rate of 20,000,000 / year, saturation occurs in...
(1,481,442,718 / 20,000,000)= 74 years!
BUT!!!! World population growth is currently...
Population as of 02/01/98 5,893,346,442
Population as of 01/01/98 5,886,645,394
5,893,346,442 - 5,886,645,394 = 6,701,048 / month
6,701,048 * 12 (months) = 80,412,576 / year growth
Let's say again only 25% are "sponsorable" (80,412,576 * .25)=
20,103,144 new persons born every year!
So? Amway would only be KEEPING PACE with ONE-FOURTH the population at
a growth rate of 20,000,000 new distributors a year! This magnitude of
growth will probably never be seen in your or my lifetime!
If this isn't sufficient evidence, your way too unrealistic.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
To address your other point about who CAN become a direct:
A "profitable" direct requires about 100 active distributors in his
group. 100 * 75 P.V. (low points, should be 100 P.V. if they are
faithful to their business. If you owned Wal-Mart would you shop at
K-Mart?)= 7500 P.V. = ~ $24,000 / year income (per plan)
A Diamond has at least 6 directs, but realistically about 1,000
persons in their organization. = ~ $150,000 / year
20,000,000 / 1,000 = 20,000 new, COMPLETELY UNIQUE, Diamonds / year!
OR 200,000, COMPLETELY UNIQUE, Directs / year!
Sure a relatively few number of persons "make it" but that's life!
It's no different whether you look at the percentage of college
graduates, Small / big business success, High-school scholarships,
athletics, whatever; Just because MOST don't make it, does that mean
that you or I shouldn't bother trying? No way! Fact is it's up to the
INDIVIDUAL, NOT statistics! Whether you believe you can or can't,
you're right! The battle is fought in the mind, not in the calculator!
Where there's a will, there IS a way! (I know, Ra Ra!) But I'm not
just regurgitating positive thinking jargon- I really believe in the
power of one's will and determination. Do you think the persons in the
numerous accounts where a loved-one was trapped underneath a ton of
steel, or similar situation, stopped to think about the ODDS of
success? There was literally NO chance of success, logically. Why then
did they succeed? They KNEW they could! They HAD to. When one HAS to
do something they usually get it done!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
In closing I'd like to comment on your beloved quote:
"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one
persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all
progress depends on the unreasonable man."
How "reasonable", at the time, WAS the automobile, airplane,
telephone, electric light bulb, Disney World, Kentucky fried chicken,
personal computer...
Progress is NOT dependent upon reasonable people. Logic and reason are
good in their proper place, but logic usually gets in the way of
success. ALL progress has been achieved by the DREAMERS of the world!
Here's some thoughts for you to consider:
Proverbs 13:12 Hope deferred maketh the heart sick: but when the
desire cometh, it is a tree of life.
Proverbs 29:18 Where there is no vision, the people perish...
Romans 8:24: For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not
hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
Amway, like every company, has its faults, and "bad apples". But Amway
represents 'hope' to millions of people who might never have any
otherwise. I know you consider yourself to be performing a service,
but don't be responsible for stealing people's hope. We cannot lower
persons to the level at which we feel we must do their thinking for
them. There is nothing about Amway that is not clearly visible to the
intelligent person who takes time to study the opportunity. If one
does not do their homework they will most likely fail the tests.
We should all heed Jesus' advice when considering ANY undertaking:
Luke 14:28 For which of you, intending to build a tower, sitteth not
down first, and counteth the cost, whether he have sufficient to
finish it?
I will write you again when (I) am free! Hope is nice to listen to,
why listen to the cacophony of cynicism?
God bless, I wish you all the success you deserve.
Subject: Re: Saturation
Tue, 10 Feb 1998
> Hi Russell,
>
> Thanks for the reply! Did you fail to notice that I did my
> calculations based upon a growth of ~55,000 new distributors a DAY?
> That's equivalent to OVER 20 MILLION a year! If Amway begin growing
> TODAY by this rate it would still take over 75 years to saturate ONLY
> 25% of the world's population, IGNORING 25% of the world's population
> growth which is more than 53,000/day! (I ELIMINATED 3/4ths of the
> population in my calculations) . How likely is a 20 million / year
> growth, even with exponential growth?
>
First of all: you didn't eliminate enough. I laughed out loud when I
saw that you believed that 1/4 of the world's population were
prospectable. If everybody in the world could see the plan TODAY,
including people who have already seen it, how many do you think would
join? Before you answer that question, think about how many "no"s you
get before you make it to a "yes". I think it would be very generous to
say that 1 in 10 would join! If I had make a more serious guess, I
would say it's more like 1 in 50 to 1 in 100, though I'm sure you'll say
it's more.
Now that we have that out of the way, let me strongly reiterate what I
said before: at its current pathetically low rate of growth, Amway could
never "saturate" within your lifetime, in the sense that it couldn't
have a sizable fraction of the earth's population as followers. We are
in agreement about that. In about 200 years, at its current rate,
Amway's exponential rate could conceivably outstrip the eligible
population, but that's not meant to be a really big concern of yours.
Yes, I DID hear you say 55,000 people a DAY. But evidently you didn't
follow my discussion of exponential growth, which is not at all like
linear growth, so I'll have to run through it again.
If, as you say, 55,000 people a day were to join this year, that would
be a total of 365 * 55,000 people in one day = about 20,000,000 new
members. So next year you would have a total of 22.5 million (20 mil +
the original 2 mil).
Now clearly this is preposterous, since it is 9 times as much as the
current number of distributors. But it gets worse than that, because in
order to maintain that same rate of growth the NEXT year, it would have
to grow NOT by another 20 million as you implied, but by another factor
of nine! The following year, you would have nine times that: 202.5
million. The year after that, 1.8 billion. The year after that,
everybody.
That's it. Saturation in five years. So now maybe you can begin to
see that even with growth at 110,000 per year right now, Amway IS
growing at a faster rate than the world's population. When I say
"110,000 every year", I don't mean multiply 110,000 by the number of
future years and add it to the current amount; dear me no!
> In summary:
>
> Current world population= 5,895,194,477 as of 2/9/98 at 1:10:57 PM EST
> (http://www.census.gov/cgi-bin/ipc/popclockw). Let's say only 1/4 are
> "sponsorable" (5,895,194,477 / 4)= 1,481,442,718 left.
>
> At a growth rate of 20,000,000 / year, saturation occurs in...
> (1,481,442,718 / 20,000,000)= 74 years!
>
> BUT!!!! World population growth is currently...
>
> Population as of 02/01/98 5,893,346,442
> Population as of 01/01/98 5,886,645,394
>
> 5,893,346,442 - 5,886,645,394 = 6,701,048 / month
> 6,701,048 * 12 (months) = 80,412,576 / year growth
> Let's say again only 25% are "sponsorable" (80,412,576 * .25)=
> 20,103,144 new persons born every year!
>
You see your error? Exponential growth is a two way street. You are
crediting the earth with exponential population growth, but you're
pretending that Amway has linear growth even though every time you draw
circles for somebody, you claim it is exponential. Even if 20,000,000
were sponsored a year at a linear rate, the situation of each
distributor would be nice initially, then it would get worse and worse
every year as a smaller proportion of new to old members was maintained.
The equation for exponential growth is N = I*r^t, where N is the total
population (on earth or in Amway) at any give time, I is the Initial
value (2.5 million or 6 billion), r is the annual growth rate as an
increased percentage (1.044 = 104.4%) and t is the number of years
considered.
Solve for t and you will find that t = ln (N/I) / ln (r). Expand that
out and you'll find, for instance, that in 218 years the population of
Amway will be 30 million, which is more than the census bureau's figures
would indicate to exist in the world at that time. And that's at
Amway's CURRENT growth rate, not by making any such exaggeration as
55,000 a day.
Now you're saying, 218 years is too long to be worried about. Well,
you're absolutely right. What you should worry about is the fact that
the system doesn't work as a business venture at all.
> So? Amway would only be KEEPING PACE with ONE-FOURTH the population at
> a growth rate of 20,000,000 new distributors a year!
No it wouldn't.
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> To address your other point about who CAN become a direct:
>
> A "profitable" direct requires about 100 active distributors in his
> group. 100 * 75 P.V. (low points, should be 100 P.V. if they are
> faithful to their business. If you owned Wal-Mart would you shop at
> K-Mart?)= 7500 P.V. = ~ $24,000 / year income (per plan)
>
> A Diamond has at least 6 directs, but realistically about 1,000
> persons in their organization. = ~ $150,000 / year
>
> 20,000,000 / 1,000 = 20,000 new, COMPLETELY UNIQUE, Diamonds / year!
> OR 200,000, COMPLETELY UNIQUE, Directs / year!
>
> Sure a relatively few number of persons "make it" but that's life!
I love this. You're sitting here patiently agreeing with me that 99%
of people LOSE money in Amway, and yet you're saying "That's life."
That's not life. You know what? I've been out of college less than
one year, and I am already making more than a direct makes. Do most
people have money drained away by their jobs, day by day? Last time I
checked, even the "broke losers" of the world were making money to live
on, not PAYING to work. But even out of the 1% of all distributors who
make money, the vast majority of THEM don't make more than someone in a
lower-middle class JOB.
So the next time you give a presentation, let's hear you put your money
where you mouth is. Go up to a new recruit and say "Hey, I've got a
great business opportunity for you, it's so great that if you're better
than 99% of the people involved, you'll make a little less than you do
in your regular job. And if you're REALLY REALLY talented, your chances
of becoming a millionaire are still a hundred times worse than they
would be if you just worked in the real world and saved your money
wisely." (Refer to my argument page, link number two, for an
explanation of this figure.) That, pal, is truth in advertising.
> It's no different whether you look at the percentage of college
> graduates, Small / big business success, High-school scholarships,
> athletics, whatever; Just because MOST don't make it, does that mean
> that you or I shouldn't bother trying?
The "Most" that don't make it in these areas is pretty titchy compared
to the most that don't make it in Amway. Just because a drop-out rate
is over 50% doesn't mean it's on a par with one where 99.99% fail,
especially when the payoff is more rewarding. Not only did you mess up
your exponential equations, but you could use some statistics
remediation as well.
> No way! Fact is it's up to the
> INDIVIDUAL, NOT statistics! Whether you believe you can or can't,
> you're right! The battle is fought in the mind, not in the calculator!
Debunking math by calling it cold-hearted is the last refuge of people
who don't know how to do math.
> Where there's a will, there IS a way! (I know, Ra Ra!) But I'm not
> just regurgitating positive thinking jargon- I really believe in the
> power of one's will and determination. Do you think the persons in the
> numerous accounts where a loved-one was trapped underneath a ton of
> steel, or similar situation, stopped to think about the ODDS of
> success? There was literally NO chance of success, logically.
"LITERALLY no chance" is an odd choice of words if they actually did
it. If there was no chance, they wouldn't have.
> Why then
> did they succeed? They KNEW they could! They HAD to. When one HAS to
> do something they usually get it done!
Ra ra.
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> In closing I'd like to comment on your beloved quote:
>
> "The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one
> persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all
> progress depends on the unreasonable man."
>
[misinterpretation snipped]
> Progress is NOT dependent upon reasonable people.
PLEASE read my quote again and pay attention to what it says before you
attack it. It said exactly what you said.
[More snippage]
> Amway, like every company, has its faults, and "bad apples".
About two and a half million of them, give or take.
> But Amway
> represents 'hope' to millions of people who might never have any
> otherwise. I know you consider yourself to be performing a service,
> but don't be responsible for stealing people's hope. We cannot lower
> persons to the level at which we feel we must do their thinking for
> them. There is nothing about Amway that is not clearly visible to the
> intelligent person who takes time to study the opportunity. If one
> does not do their homework they will most likely fail the tests.
>
I agree with that. I did my homework and was very fascinated by what I
found. Did you?
> I will write you again when (I) am free! Hope is nice to listen to,
> why listen to the cacophony of cynicism?
>
I don't know, it seems to me that false hope is worse than no hope at
all. I have hope. I like my chosen profession, I live in a delightful
city, I have a beautiful girl who loves me, and I get mental stimulation
every day by arguing with people like you. What more could anyone ask?
But to see hundreds of thousands of people pouring their money into a
false system that strips them of their real dreams and replaces it with
idol-worship, alienation, and material obsession -- that makes me sad.
Maybe that's just me.
So why am consider the cynic here, when you belong to a group that
routinely tells people that their lives are miserable and they have NO
hope unless they join your one single system?
> God bless, I wish you all the success you deserve.
>
Was that supposed to be a curse? :)
Subject: Hopelessness
Tue, 10 Feb 1998
Dear Russell,
I wasn't going to reply but felt compelled to do so. It's
interesting that the quote you champion goes AGAINST your own
argument, what's your point? YOU think that Amway is unreasonable,
thus those that are involved are unreasonable as well, and therefore,
according to Churchill, the source of all progress! But hey your
arguments are full of inconsistencies.
Yes I did "study" the opportunity. But it doesn't take much to see
that changing the way you shop, (and now having products delivered to
your door) at a competitive price, and referring the idea to people
you CARE about, is a great idea! Is it too simple? And how many
companies of Amway's stature are debt-free and growing healthily?
Seems a lot more stable than the electrical engineering field I'm in.
Thanks for the lesson in remedial math and statistics but I don't
need them. (I think we've all heard the penny doubled analogy by now).
I prefer to keep my logic simple so most can understand it. People
like you seem to try to impress others with your "smarts"-
"A man of true science uses but few hard words (or math), and those
only when none other will answer his purpose; whereas the smatterer in
science thinks that by mouthing hard words he understands hard
things." -Herman Melville
I used ridiculously large numbers that more than compensate for any
near future 'exponential growth' and statistics can be used to prove
ANYTHING so I prefer not to rely on them too heavily. Remember when we
were told that 10% of the US population is gay? Yeah right, hope not!
And yes, at least 1/4 the population IS prospectable. People DO wake up
and change their minds! I'm laughing out loud because I see it happen
EVERY day!
Fact is that Amway's growth is selectively exponential, not wholly.
You and I both know that most distributors never sponsor anyone. They
are too scared, and too insecure about themselves to believe that THEY
just might know a good thing when they see it, and NOT need anyone's
approval to substantiate the fact. We usually find what we 'really'
LOOK for, and unfortunately such insecure persons often fool
themselves into thinking they are 'getting the facts' when they are
really searching for an excuse to succumb to their fears. And YOU
supply all the fuel these desperate souls need to kill their hope!
Sleep well! Amway does attempt to brain-WASH (Washing IS good) people
to rid them of negative baggage, but persons such as you pull the silt
out of the drain and try to feed it back to them. Just like a cheap
vacuum, your arguments are nothing new, just regurgitated dirt.
But hey, your mind is made up-( per Zig Zigler "...like cement: all
mixed up and permanently set"); Amway is a bad business and won't
work, but then they did do over $7,000,000,000 last year anyway. How
much did the 'legit' company you work for generate? And you have been
divinely selected as the 'intelligence for the people' since everyone
is too ignorant to come to their own logical conclusions. Rather
presumptuous don't you think? And a good two-thirds of your letters
appear to support Amway, even many who are losing money! Wow!
Hey by the way, I suppose you're fortunate enough to work for a
company that supplies you with a company car, and buys all your gas so
you can drive to work, and a stipend to cover all the maintenance like
oil changes and tires and such, and gives you a fine clothing
allowance, and lets you charge all your lunches to the company, and
then let's you write off all these expenses from your taxes! You' re
lucky! It doesn't cost YOU any money to GO TO WORK!!!
You like many other's in the world are rather hypocritical; You
wouldn't dare take advice about computer programming from someone who
went to college for three weeks and then dropped out because it was
too hard, but you envision yourself as an expert on Amway with only
three weeks 'trying' it out. Well, in the words of master Yoda: "There
is no such thing as try, only do"! True discernment!
I'm glad you find arguing with me 'stimulating', I don't find it
such. You are obviously a person of intelligence but it's rather
misguided. If you'd spend 1/10th the energy you exhaust, bashing
Amway, on your own venture you'd be rich within a year, and I'm not
just saying this.
As far as my "curse": I'd call it close to blasphemy to call "God
bless, and all the success you deserve" a curse! But maybe you are an
atheist that doesn't believe in the American way, and voted for
Clinton. Perhaps your comment reflects an insecurity regarding your
own perceived merit of success?
I apologize that this letter has a certain negative piquancy, but
you resemble those Peter referred to in the new testament:
II Timothy 3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the
knowledge of the truth.
The truth is that time will prove Amway to be just what it claims
to be, as long as character, ethics, morality, and good business
acumen CONTINUE to prevail- An American Way to achieve what one is
willing to believe in and fight for! God bless America-n Way!
May you know Truth,
****
John 8:32
Subject: Re: Hopelessness
Wed, 11 Feb 1998
From the fact that the main thrust of your argument was basically "math
is stupid and it doesn't prove anything", I'm guessing you don't want to
play this game on my terms anymore. :) Therefore I will spare you from
more equations and say let's just wrap this up like gentlemen.
I will say it was clever of you to slip the words "or math" in
Melville's quote when it wasn't there in the first place. Personally I
didn't think the math was all that hard; it was stuff I did back in high
school.
Speaking of quotes, you misquoted Yoda (The actual words are "Do or not
do, there is no try") and you misattributed my George Bernard Shaw quote
to Winston Churchill.
> Hey by the way, I suppose you're fortunate enough to work for a
> company that supplies you with a company car, and buys all your gas so
> you can drive to work, and a stipend to cover all the maintenance like
> oil changes and tires and such, and gives you a fine clothing
> allowance, and lets you charge all your lunches to the company, and
> then let's you write off all these expenses from your taxes! You' re
> lucky! It doesn't cost YOU any money to GO TO WORK!!!
No, it doesn't. I spent about 20 bucks on gas last week, plus another
30 or so while eating on the job, and I made about $600. That's profit.
If you get a $10 bonus check this month after spending $100 on product
and five hours of your time showing the plan -- that's loss.
> I'm glad you find arguing with me 'stimulating', I don't find it
> such.
Awww, now that's just petty! Come on, ****, if you're not having fun
then why do you keep writing to me?
> As far as my "curse": I'd call it close to blasphemy to call "God
> bless, and all the success you deserve" a curse!
Oh, I was just wondering how much success you think I deserve.
> I apologize that this letter has a certain negative piquancy
No need to apologize. It's refreshing to hear a distributor call
himself negative instead of me.
See you later! Since this was just a short, wacky letter with no major
content, I hereby absolve you of any need to reply unless you'd find it
fun.
You would think he'd take a hint and end it at this point, or make a one-paragraph wrap-up and move on... wouldn't you? Guess again! Stay tuned for Saturation Guy: THE VENGANCE!
Subject: Reply
Wed, 11 Feb 1998
Hey Russell,
One last reply. Figured I'd use the format you seem to like! But
first an apology. I should be more careful when attributing quotes,
guess that's what I get for deleting your e-mail immediately after
reading it.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From the fact that the main thrust of your argument was basically
"math is stupid and it doesn't prove anything", I'm guessing you don't
want to play this game on my terms anymore. :) Therefore I will
spare you from more equations and say let's just wrap this up like
gentlemen.
> Have you appointed yourself my personal interpreter as well as the
'intelligence for the people'? It would be rather ignorant for an
engineering professional to call math "stupid". And what are your
terms? Must I get myself into a negative, jaded, close-minded,
defensive state before considering the merits of Amway? I'm doomed!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I will say it was clever of you to slip the words "or math" in
Melville's quote when it wasn't there in the first place.
> Thus the parenthesis: (or math)- Didn't want to mislead you. But
thanks for the compliment? I still think the quote applies.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Personally I didn't think the math was all that hard; it was stuff I
did back in high school.
>I knew this would be your riposte. If you'll recall, I did refer to
the math as 'remedial'.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Speaking of quotes, you misquoted Yoda (The actual words are "Do or
not do, there is no try")
I didn't say the quote was verbatim. I believe I used "in the words.."
Anyway, doesn't my version say the same thing?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
and you misattributed my George Bernard Shaw quote to Winston
Churchill.
>Sorry. I really should be more careful! Sounds like something
Churchill might have said though, don't you think?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
No, it doesn't. I spent about 20 bucks on gas last week, plus another
30 or so while eating on the job, and I made about $600.
>After the $50 expenses?
That's profit.
>You forgot to break down your maintenance, clothing, and lack of tax
benefits (Amway businesses get some) for me. I'd say your 'profit' is
quite a bit less than what you think.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
If you get a $10 bonus check this month after spending $100 on product
and five hours of your time showing the plan -- that's loss.
>Products would be purchased regardless so you can't really include
them. They are reasonably priced, but no need to argue the fact. The
'investment' in time and capital is only loss if there is no R.O.I.
Not to mention that my 'loss' is tax deductible!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Awww, now that's just petty! Come on, ****, if you're not having fun
then why do you keep writing to me?
>You're right, it is amusing!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Oh, I was just wondering how much success you think I deserve.
>I have absolutely no way of knowing. What does it matter what I think
anyway, that wasn't the point. My original comment was not sarcastic.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
No need to apologize. It's refreshing to hear a distributor call
himself negative instead of me.
> Talk about a misquote! I'm pretty sure I referred to my LETTER as
having a "certain negative piquancy" NOT BEING negative; and I
definitely did not say that I was negative. I believe that Amway will
work! Can't possibly be any more positive than that could I?!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
See you later! Since this was just a short, wacky letter with no
major content,
>Well let's review the 'content' from which you interestingly pick
your arguments based upon what you perceive you can win:
"It's interesting that the quote you champion goes AGAINST your own
argument, what's your point? YOU think that Amway is unreasonable,
thus those that are involved are unreasonable as well, and therefore,
according to Churchill, (er Shaw) , the source of all progress!"
"Yes I did "study" the opportunity. But it doesn't take much to see
that changing the way you shop, (and now having products delivered to
your door) at a competitive price, and referring the idea to people
you CARE about, is a great idea! Is it too simple"
"I used ridiculously large numbers that more than compensate for any
near future 'exponential growth' and statistics can be used to prove
ANYTHING so I prefer not to rely on them too heavily."
"Fact is that Amway's growth is selectively exponential, not wholly.
You and I both know that most distributors never sponsor anyone. They
are too scared, and too insecure about themselves to believe that THEY
just might know a good thing when they see it, and NOT need anyone's
approval to substantiate the fact. We usually find what we 'really'
LOOK for, and unfortunately such insecure persons often fool
themselves into thinking they are 'getting the facts' when they are
really searching for an excuse to succumb to their fears. And YOU
supply all the fuel these desperate souls need to kill their hope!
Sleep well!"
"Amway does attempt to brain-WASH (Washing IS good) people to rid them
of negative baggage, but persons such as you pull the silt out of the
drain and try to feed it back to them. Just like a cheap vacuum, your
arguments are nothing new, just regurgitated dirt."
"...And a good two-thirds of your letters appear to support Amway,
even many who are losing money! Wow!"
"You like many other's in the world are rather hypocritical; You
wouldn't dare take advice about computer programming from someone who
went to college for three weeks and then dropped out because it was
too hard, but you envision yourself as an expert on Amway with only
three weeks 'trying' it out."
"If you'd spend 1/10th the energy you exhaust, bashing Amway, on your
own venture you'd be rich within a year..."
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I hereby absolve you of any need to reply unless you'd find it fun.
Well now, I guess that makes you:
1- Intelligence for the people 2- My personal interpreter and 3- My
Pope! Well I don't believe that one needs any human to absolve them of
anything. and I'm quite aware of what my 'need' is. But again, I do
find this correspondence humorous. Gives me something to do till I
have more work.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one
persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all
progress depends on the unreasonable man."
-- George Bernard Shaw
>Couldn't agree more! Think I'll put this quote on my marquee
screen-saver! Thanks! I suspect that if Shaw were to rewrite this
quote today he would use words like 'conforming' and 'nonconforming'
instead. Employees usually don't create much progress, but reason is
indeed a high virtue.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
P.S. You did vote for Clinton didn't you! His math is unrealistic too.
He thinks he can balance the budget and increase spending at the same
time! But hey, government health care, now there's a great idea!?????
Awww, and here I was trying so hard to be polite and withdraw from the fray. But to an ex-debater, throwing a bunch of nitpicks and saying he "forgot" to reply to them is like asking an Amway distributor to publicly display his three-month profit and loss sheet: an insult not to be tolerated. Here we go again...
Subject: Re: Reply
Thu, 12 Feb 1998
If you recall, I said I was giving you a silly and light-hearted letter
last time because I was attempting to politely "wrap it up like
gentlemen" and not antagonize you further. I didn't choose ANY
arguments that I thought I could "win" because I figured you and I have
both said just about all I have to say on this subject. I think you'll
agree that we're not likely to convince each other of much new stuff, so
I thought I'd be friendly and let you walk out with the last word.
Also, I'm worried that if we keep quoting each other verbatim and
responding to every word that's said, this will become an exponentially
long correspondence. ;)
But anyway, since you INSISTED that I go one more round with you, I
guess I'll have to do so.
> >Well let's review the 'content' from which you interestingly pick
> your arguments based upon what you perceive you can win:
>
> "It's interesting that the quote you champion goes AGAINST your own
> argument, what's your point? YOU think that Amway is unreasonable,
> thus those that are involved are unreasonable as well, and therefore,
> according to Churchill, (er Shaw) , the source of all progress!"
>
>
That quote appeals to me because an unreasonable man is one who refuses
to do what he's told when his orders are ridiculous. One who doesn't
use social norms as a measure of what someone can do. I would say we
agree at that point, and I have tried to apply it to my life and my work
wherever possible.
Where we would NOT agree is when I will say that Amway distributors pay
lip service to believing themselves unreasonable, but in fact they are
very reasonable. Following an upline is just like following a boss, and
worse, because my bosses generally don't ask me to take things on
faith. But then again, that may just be because they know I wouldn't,
since I have a reputation for being unreasonable! :)
Duplicating someone in the way that Amway distributors do is
ridiculously reasonable, in the worst sense that Shaw meant the word.
He was using "unreasonable" not in the sense of "illogical" or
"foolish", but in the sense of "stubborn" and "headstrong". There's a
big difference between unreasonable in this sense of the word, and
thoughtless. Thoughtless is following an enterprise that really isn't
all that revolutionary, in which two to three million are involved and
most of them lose money. That's not unreasonable by Shaw's definition.
It's certainly unreasonable by the "foolish" definition, so yes, I agree
that in some sense you are unreasonable.
> "Yes I did "study" the opportunity. But it doesn't take much to see
> that changing the way you shop, (and now having products delivered to
> your door) at a competitive price, and referring the idea to people
> you CARE about, is a great idea! Is it too simple"
>
>
I went over price plenty of times in my story and I usually don't
answer remarks like that anymore. The products that Amway makes are of
average quality for value according to Consumer Reports, and very poor
quality according to my ex-distributor girlfriend. The products that
Amway doesn't make are significantly and consistently overpriced. Go
ahead, do your own price comparisons on items that are also sold through
other channels, and see if you still don't agree with me.
> "I used ridiculously large numbers that more than compensate for any
> near future 'exponential growth' and statistics can be used to prove
> ANYTHING so I prefer not to rely on them too heavily."
>
>
I didn't think you would want to rely on them heavily. You're right,
those numbers were ridiculously large, but more ridiculous than you
thought. You said "Even if the numbers were that big, Amway would never
saturate." I just proved you wrong. You don't agree?
> "Fact is that Amway's growth is selectively exponential, not wholly.
> model?>
>
Listen, engineer, you of all people should know that exponential growth
is exponential growth. If one tenth of distributors increase by ten
percent, that's a one percent increase overall. All that enters the
equations is the final geometric proportion. "Selectively" exponential
is not a term that ever entered a math textbook. Growth either is
exponential or it isn't.
Are you now going to tell me that an Amway distributorship does **not**
grow exponentially? If you are, that's fine with me. Or if, by
implication, you are going to try to say that fewer distributors grow
exponentially every year -- well, that's probably true too, and it
reflects pretty badly on the success rate, doesn't it?
> You and I both know that most distributors never sponsor anyone. They
> are too scared, and too insecure about themselves to believe that THEY
> just might know a good thing when they see it, and NOT need anyone's
> approval to substantiate the fact. We usually find what we 'really'
> LOOK for, and unfortunately such insecure persons often fool
> themselves into thinking they are 'getting the facts' when they are
> really searching for an excuse to succumb to their fears. And YOU
> supply all the fuel these desperate souls need to kill their hope!
> Sleep well!"
>
>
I did sleep well, thank you very much. I supply the fuel telling
people that their real lives are not hopeless, which is a notion that
Amway propogates at every opportunity.
> "Amway does attempt to brain-WASH (Washing IS good) people to rid them
> of negative baggage, but persons such as you pull the silt out of the
> drain and try to feed it back to them. Just like a cheap vacuum, your
> arguments are nothing new, just regurgitated dirt."
>
>
I don't respond to silly analogies that don't mean anything.
Amway is like poking yourself in the eye with a big stick, and tapes
are the stick! And people like you are going around handing sticks to
small children and telling them to go play.
Hahahaha, bet you can't make a clever rebuttal to THAT brilliantly
crafted argument.
(Please don't. That was sarcasm.)
> "...And a good two-thirds of your letters appear to support Amway,
> even many who are losing money! Wow!"
>
>
Did you really count them? The last time I checked, a majority support
me. Why don't you count one some of the most recent pages for negative,
positive, and neutral responses, and tell me honestly what ratio you
come up with.
> "You like many other's in the world are rather hypocritical; You
> wouldn't dare take advice about computer programming from someone who
> went to college for three weeks and then dropped out because it was
> too hard, but you envision yourself as an expert on Amway with only
> three weeks 'trying' it out."
>
>
I'm only an expert in some ways. For your information, I have
certainly "studied" Amway for a lot more than three weeks. I'm
obviously not an expert in presenting "The Plan" convincingly (I tried
to for fun, but I couldn't keep a straight face!) but I'm an expert in
seeing the long term effects of Amway membership on a large group of
people -- something Amway distributors are obviously not so expert on
since they are discouraged from crosslining (e.g., talking to anyone who
has no motivation to say that their business is just peachy no matter
what).
By the way, have you READ many of my letters? Better stop that, you
might get in trouble.
> "If you'd spend 1/10th the energy you exhaust, bashing Amway, on your
> own venture you'd be rich within a year..."
>
You haven't any idea what I do with my life. I spend a lot more time
planning my own venture than I do paying attention to Amway. The only
time I spend a LOT of time on this subject is when I get into little
flame-wars. Um, not unlike this one.
> I hereby absolve you of any need to reply unless you'd find it fun.
>
> Well now, I guess that makes you:
> 1- Intelligence for the people 2- My personal interpreter and 3- My
> Pope! Well I don't believe that one needs any human to absolve them of
> anything.
Not even the pope? :)
> (Shaw quote)
>
> >Couldn't agree more! Think I'll put this quote on my marquee
> screen-saver! Thanks! I suspect that if Shaw were to rewrite this
> quote today he would use words like 'conforming' and 'nonconforming'
> instead. Employees usually don't create much progress, but reason is
> indeed a high virtue.
Yes, but "unreasonable" has more shock value, which is exactly what
unreasonable people appreciate. I like the quote exactly the way it is,
and I'm glad you liked it too.
> P.S. You did vote for Clinton didn't you! His math is unrealistic too.
> He thinks he can balance the budget and increase spending at the same
> time! But hey, government health care, now there's a great idea!?????
I did vote for Clinton, a fact which has no bearing on this
discussion. Attacking a person is no way to defeat an argument; if you
think my math is unrealistic then you should try a little harder to show
me why.
As far as my politics, it would appear to me that both the economy and
my personal financial situation have improved since then, so I am not
particularly unhappy with my choice. But I have no desire to turn this
into a political discussion, since this is a whole other realm.
Jumping back up to the only new and interesting thing that was said in
the beginning of the letter...
> No, it doesn't. I spent about 20 bucks on gas last week, plus another
> 30 or so while eating on the job, and I made about $600.
>
> >After the $50 expenses?
>
> That's profit.
>
> >You forgot to break down your maintenance, clothing, and lack of tax
> benefits (Amway businesses get some) for me. I'd say your 'profit' is
> quite a bit less than what you think.
It's less than 600 dollars a week, to be sure. I didn't say my job
gives me rent money and free food; neither does Amway.
What I said was that I make more money than I spend. My bank account
and mutual funds both increase month by month. That is what "profit"
means. Are you being facetious on purpose, or what? Drop your job and
do Amway full time, see if you can say the same.
Two final remarks.
First of all, what's your level as a distributor? What's your monthly
profit so far? How long have you been in? I've told you several little
details about my financial situation, and I noticed you have omitted to
respond in kind. Care to share?
Second of all, when quoting an email the way I do, it is customary to
put the pointer before the OTHER person's letter, not yours. That way
older letters will have more quotes. Like this:
>> Your math is all wrong!
> Is not!
Is too!
My mail program (Netscape Messenger) does this quoting automatically.
But if yours doesn't, an easier way to quote a long text block by
somebody else is like this:
<< Fourscore and seven years ago our fathers brought on this continent a
new nation, conceived in liberty and dedicated to the proposition that
all men are created equal.>>
See ya next time.
Subject: Answered Questions
Thu, 12 Feb 1998
Hello Russell,
As said in my last e-mail I didn't intend to carry on any further
but I feel it would be rude to not answer your questions when you were
cordial enough to do so for me. I won't answer questions I feel I've
already addressed such as Amway's success rate. Oh, thanks for the
message etiquette lesson, I wasn't aware there was any formality. No I
don't have Netscape Messenger, I use Lotus cc:Mail.
<< I didn't think you would want to rely on them heavily. You're
right,those numbers were ridiculously large, but more ridiculous than
you thought. You said "Even if the numbers were that big, Amway would
never saturate." I just proved you wrong. You don't agree? >>
Yes I agree,assuming exponential growth, IF they were ever that big. I
really don't believe you or I will ever see those kinds of numbers.
And a bit off the subject, but I don't believe the world will continue
as we know it today for much longer. (Biblically speaking)
<< Did you really count them? The last time I checked, a majority
support me. Why don't you count one some of the most recent pages for
negative, positive, and neutral responses, and tell me honestly what
ratio you come up with.>>
Yes but they were older letters.
<
Yes. How? I'm my own person, and prospects should ALWAYS be encouraged
to do their homework. Somewhat related: Crosslining is just a poor
business practice. I understand that you were not in long enough for
you to understand the implications of crosslining. It's not meant to
'hide the truth' but to preserve one's business. It's similar to
recognizing that your two sons have different strengths and
encouraging them to pursue activities that capitalize on their
strengths. You wouldn't want your children to think you were giving
them bad advice just because you told them both completely different
things. Hope this makes some sense to you.
<>
I "knew" you voted for Clinton! And I thought you said this was fun.
War isn't fun.
<>
Especially not the Pope! "Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the
truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." (John
14:6) "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men,
the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be
testified in due time." (I Timothy 2:5-6) I don't see the Pope
mentioned anywhere!
<<...Are you being facetious on purpose, or what? Drop your job and
do Amway full time, see if you can say the same.>>
Just a matter of definition. If I spend $5 to earn $50. It still COST
me $5 even though I net $45. Too many people use a different measure
on their jobs than they do this business. Only a fool would believe
that a business doesn't require any investment. And thank you, I will
soon!
<>
1000 P.V.
<>
I don't discuss my finances with strangers. Nothing personal.
<>
Since 1991, but the real question is how long have I been 'active'.
Even that isn't the issue but rather, when did I DECIDE (defined?)
that I was going to sellout to this enterprise and PUT ACTION behind
my decision. I'll answer THAT question; about 2 weeks ago.
<>
As already said, my finances are not public domain. I'm rather private
in that regard. It's nice that you are comfortable being open with
yours, but please be careful.
God Bless!
P.S. Don't forget me. I promised I'd write again when I'm free. See ya
then!
Subject: Re: Answered Questions
Sat, 14 Feb 1998
I feel like this is an appropriate stopping point in our discussion, so
I think I'll defer and let you have the last word at that.
One final question. I am not saying that this will necessarily be the
case, but if at some point in the near future I decide that our recent
correspondence might be interesting material for "letter of the month",
would you object?
I should clarify that my letters of the month tend to alternate between
two categories: unusually ridiculous letters that I decide to draw
attention to, and unusually intelligent exchanges that might give people
something to think about. This would, of course, be in the latter
category.
See ya.
And now that he's admitted that his success level in Amway is approximately nil after seven years, he declined to reply to that question... so I guess I will do just that.
Subject: Your Amway story (part 2)
Fri, 6 Feb 1998
I can relate. My brother is EMERALD, and my parents and sister are DIRECTS nd
I and my other brother are SILVERS......BUT! After losing a great deal of $
AND after my third "try", I gave up. I am still a distributor albeit inactive,
and I have mixed feelings about your website. My sister is quite ill and if
not for her AM income, would be at the mercy of the social security system.My
Dad is elderly, but because of AM,he is quite active and has great fun with
his distributors. My EMERALD brother, though, had such grave misfortune as a
result of a freak accident that I feel is subsequent to THE BUSINESS : I feel
compelled to tell you, although I have a feeling that you will abuse this sad
information. He bought a motorhome so that he could have his family with him
to do THE BUSINESS and my little 7 year old nephew was killed (his son) last
summer from climbing under a luggage space and being asphixiated by a part of
the couch/bed that crushed his little neck. NO fault of anyone. Just a
horrific accident.It might have happened anyway. Only the higher realms of
existence have access to that information. BUT. While my precious little
nephew lay dying in the hospital over a course of three agonizing,tragic days,
I witnessed a Wonder. I felt like you do. AFTER being a distributor for 7
years(!)
(and I have voted for our current President of our country twice and I have
lived on a commune and I am left winged) I have so much more room to talk than
you do! I saw and experienced the heart of the people in THE GROUP. Diamonds
and Emeralds and Peons alike flooded the hospital with comforting words,
prayers (and our family is not Christian) , food, transportation, Kleenex
(negative product) when needed,any shoulder available to cry on, and people
from all over the country came to our sweet boy's funeral. It was astounding
and remarkable. I am still not an active participant in THE BUSINESS, and
although I agree with a lot of the negative and skeptical views you have, I
thought you might want to take a moment, like I have, to listen to another
side of the story. I am not trying, like you are, to change anyone's mind or
convince anyone that there is a right or wrong way. You must hear from this
story, however, that NOTHING is ever all bad OR all good.Amway is a business
and has helped a lot of people and I am not one of them, financially, that is.
I miss my little nephew so much. My family is very sad, and I am crying as I
write this.None of us, however has yet to drop out of Amway!I will try one
more time. When my children are grown. I am a single parent . Please do not
distribute this on the web. My brother and sister-in-law are wonderful people.
Generous and loving, despite their great tragedy, and I think this might feel
hurtful to them. They have already had their share, trust this.
Sincerely and without malice,
a distributor
Subject: Your Amway story (part 3) Sat, 7 Feb 1998 Dear Russell. Read your web page after my third encounter with a amway agent. He did not know that I had been an agent for a similar company(that sold herbs) many years ago. It was on the second encounter, that caught on to what he was doing as he mentioned a larger than large company. This company I noticed was never given a name. That is until tonight! As soon as we started the meeting, he opened with reference to a mag and instantly I noticed the Amway logo. But I felt a time waster by saying Stop! it's Amway (the capital A is no sign of respect) so I sat through it, with my head in my hands going half & half. I expect he will ring me soon as he's got my number, and I'm going to show HIM the light. P.S. These people will break many friendships.
Subject: Your Amway story (part 3) Sat, 7 Feb 1998 Bravo! I have had several friends try to intorduce me to the "business". I always thought it funny that they never spoke of Amway by name, and that it was never soap or other sundries but the"product". Anyway after six months of $15.00 bonuses they decided it was just another scam.
Subject: Your Amway page... Sat, 07 Feb 1998 I was very interested to come across your web page aout Amway. I was recently approached by an old work colleague who introduced me to an Amway distributor who had come over from Florida, his name was Frank and he used to own a construction business until he earned more out of his Amway business. I have since been to a local meeting and plan to go to a rally on 15 Feb. I have not yet signed up eventhough this appears to be a wonderful opportunity. Are you saying that all of the people who are encouraging me have got it wrong? Yours sincerely,
Subject: Your Amway story Sat, 07 Feb 1998 I read bits and parts here and there. But, I too was concerned about only hearing the "emotional" hype on the tapes with no substance. "You Will Be Assimilated" & "Resistance Is Futile", you must be a Star Trek watcher. I have my reservations as well mostly the way the money is made, it seems never really selling the product but to get others to join. It would not bother me at all if I had a catalog like say "Mary K" where at least you sell and someone purchases, period! Besides, doing this takes me further from my goal of where I want to go. However, I do want to be rich someday, but I temper that by saying money will not be my end all of life, that would be pretty empty. I can honestly back out because this really takes me away from where I want to go and, I am not a real good sales person. I deal with the black and white and these tapes, etc are just gray, nothing to sink my teeth into, I'm babbling, time to go. Locutus of Borg.
Subject: Amway Sat, 07 Feb 1998 Russell: Thanks for your story. I have a friend who unfortunately just joined Amway. I printed a copy of your story and am going to give it to my friend. Hopefully it will help. See, your story does make a difference, regardlesss of what that Amway jerk said. Best of luck to you in exposing a cult-like business.
Subject: Amway
Sun, 08 Feb 1998
Hi there,
I am writing to ask you if you know about any changes in the way Amway
works. Supposedly your data is from early 1997. I am also being forced into
joining this business and was very excited earlier, but now reading all this
stuff on the internet I am changing my mind. I live in Canada. My (to
be)sponsors tell me Amway has changed a lot after I told them about my
research on the net. Is it true or do you not know. I would like you to
help me out. Please respond soon as possible.
Thank you
Subject: Re: Amway
Sun, 08 Feb 1998
> Hi there,
>
> I am writing to ask you if you know about any changes in the way Amway
> works. Supposedly your data is from early 1997. I am also being forced into
> joining this business and was very excited earlier, but now reading all this
> stuff on the internet I am changing my mind. I live in Canada. My (to
> be)sponsors tell me Amway has changed a lot after I told them about my
> research on the net. Is it true or do you not know. I would like you to
> help me out. Please respond soon as possible.
It's interesting that you should say that. When I was prospected for
Amway in 1996, I was told that Amway had changed since the "old days."
When my girlfriend became a distributor eight years ago, she too was
told that things were a lot different from the old Amway. And according
to Steven Butterfield's book, "The Cult of Free Enterprise", written in
1982, there was plenty of talk also about how different Amway was from
the way things used to be.
You can draw your own conclusions, can't you? No matter when you ask
about it, you're always told that the company USED to be terrible but
now it's changed.
Used to, or is?
Subject: too you Sun, 8 Feb 1998 youre right!! alot of the things you say are true. thats why i choose not to build my business that way.i once had an experience like that and did not like it. but i realize thats one amway person out of many. i since found out there are many groups in amway. and all of them do things differently. your right, you should be up front with everything including costs of tapes, meetings,products ect.. if you do people appreciate it. this is a very good business. as long as its done thr right way and unfortunately alot of people are out for a quick buck. i hope you dont think all of us are like that cause were not . thanks for the insights
Subject: Your Amway page... Mon, 9 Feb 1998 It is sad that there are so many asshole distributors out there who are so high on chasing the "Dream" that they alienate those arround them and loose touch with themselves. Like many things that can have great rewards, there is a great struggle.(I know, thats a line!!!) If there is a way to achieve finantial success without struggle, change and stress, I'd like to know. Amway is a company that makes a lot of money. Some of that money goes into the pockets of the Distributors. In order to become a happy money making distributor, one must tailor an approach that doesn't violate ones own principals. If after much thought, this is not possible, don't join. There are many ways to make money in this world, Amway is just one of them. Like it or not, there are many Amway millionaires out there who have remained who they are, kept their old friends, gone through conflict and walked away cashed up for life. It is not really a question of weather you like this business or not. People will join and will suceed. Many more will join and quit. This is how it has always been. As a humble 3%er, If I quit, I will remain grateful for the knowledge I have been "brainwashed" with. If I go for it, I will do things I don't enjoy doing to get what I want. I enjoy reading your page as it reflects the doubts and fears any thinking person should have. I have learn't a lot about what not to do, and what to look out for when I have my own group. Before you Say "NO!" The culture in your own network is controlled by you. You decide the context you take your information on board. Respect what your upline says or find a different upline, join a diferent system or start your own. I am proud of the culture and integrity of the people in my line of sponsorship. Instead of looking to Amway for integrity problems, look to the people who you are joining. Find someone you genuinely like. People skills, dreams and sucess won't hide an asshole.
Subject: In search of a soul
Sun, 08 Feb 1998
(Note: this was forwarded from Jamie Simm, another Amway page maintainer)
Hello Fellow Canadians,
I think your sight is great, and much needed. I found out about it
from another Amway exposé sight called the Perils of Amway. I have been
trying to send the author of that sight the following email letter, but it
keeps coming back to me with a message that the address has permanent fatal
errors, whatever that means. Anyway, I believe you and your readers may find
the letter interesting as well, so I send it to you in its original form. If
you know how Mr. Glasser can be reached could you let me know?
Hi Russel,
I want to thank you for the very informative, and very readable
account of your Amway experience. I am currently being courted by a very
persistent distributor (are there any other kinds?). In fact, he is probably
leaving a message on my voice mail system in his phony, over-enthusiastic
voice as I type this letter.
Over the last couple of weeks, I have found myself feeling
alternately seduced and disgusted, intrigued and annoyed by the bombardment
of Amway motivational materials and meetings. However, I found myself with no
one that I could trust to really disclose how I felt about things.
I am based in Toronto, and the resident Amway guru here is named
Casey Cambden. I think he was on the cover of last month's Amagram magazine.
I want to share with you and your readers my impressions of the person who is
held up as a messiah by the Amwayites of Toronto.
I have gone to two big meetings so far, held at banquet halls, each
of which contained about 500 or more people (as I discovered at the second
meeting, they were mostly the exact same people). Following the presentation
of "the plan" and the vulgar parade of "credible," wealthy distributors, the
presenter would introduce Casey. Each time, the audience members reacted in
the same manner. They rose to their feet clapping and whistling and hooting
and hollering. The only thing they didn't do was bow down to him, chanting
his name. However the effect was the same.
Anyway, after the adoring masses finally calmed down, this guy much
money he has and how much traveling he is doing, and how many countries his
business is operating in. In fact, he is foaming at the mouth about the fact
that he is about to set up shop in India and The Philippines. He plays up the
fact (and I think he was trying to be funny) that he knows virtually nothing
about these places; but when he finds out the sheer numbers of people, or
should I say the potential recruits, who live there he can hardly contain his
excitement. Then he talks about the fact that he is leaving for South Africa
in a few days, where he will go on safari, and tend to business matters
there. He goes on to congratulate himself some more, talking about his humble
beginnings, and filling us in on how many cars and boats he has.
Is this guy aware of the living conditions in India, The Philippines,
or South Africa. Are the words caste system, untouchable, apartheid,
inequality, or female infanticide even remotely familiar to him. It seemed
like his vision of the world was simply that it is nothing more than one,
big, giant, contact list for Amway distributors.
It led me to wonder whether anybody in this business has a soul?
Does anyone believe that there are compelling reasons for our existence other
then the accumulation of wealth? Does anybody have the imagination to
envision rewards in life that can't be purchased with money? How about close,
intimate relationships with friends and family? How about trying to minister
to the spiritual needs of people? How about devotion to study, the
appreciation of humankind's greatest achievements and greatest failures? How
about the ongoing development of faith and morality and global consciousness?
I saw no evidence of any of this, only the urgent desire to make lots and
lots of money, and fast.
I am a teacher who is just starting his career. Full-time job
prospects are not great in the teaching field at the moment, and I am only
getting substitute assignments right now. The somewhat dim outlook for
teachers is partly responsible for my being seduced he Amway plan. However,
after having witnessed the spectacle I described, and corroborating my
feelings by reading the experiences of others on-line, I am filled with
renewed resolve to stick with a profession that is personally meaningful. I
am glad I had the chance to witness the Amway recruitment machine, and
experience the crassness and manipulativeness of it all. I thank you for
confirming my feelings, and helping me come to my senses.
Subject: Re: In Search of a Soul
Sun, 08 Feb 1998
I received your letter through Jamie Simm, and thought I ought to reply
since you went to so much trouble to write it. :) I am not aware that
anything is wrong with my email since my mail flow has not fallen off at
all. Is this the one you were using (rglasser@ix.netcom.com)?
It has been brought to my attention several times now that Amway is
trying to get its tentacles into India. I've seen several mass junk
e-mailings (eeewwwww) and posts to newsgroups talking about the same
vague "business opportunity" that you probably heard, and promises about
being a partner in a company that's developing in the area. The
majority of the Indians who have contacted me are concerned and fretful
about the prospect of their country being assaulted by this group
they've been hearing about.
Wish I could say something encouraging on that score, but Amway's
greatest market is obviously one where people have never heard of Amway
and don't know just how bad the odds of success are. I expect that
several dozen new diamonds WILL be created through the expansion to the
India market, and it will be done at the expense of tens of thousands of
people who can hardly afford to lose their money on this venture.
<< It led me to wonder whether anybody in this business has a
soul? Does anyone believe that there are compelling reasons for our
existence other then
the accumulation of wealth? Does anybody have the imagination to
envision
rewards in life that can't be purchased with money? How about close,
intimate relationships with friends and family? How about trying to
minister to the spiritual needs of people? How about devotion to study,
the appreciation of humankind's greatest achievements and greatest
failures? How about the ongoing development of faith and morality and
global consciousness? I saw no evidence of any of this, only the urgent
desire to make lots and lots of money, and fast.>>
I of course grappled with these very same questions when I was planning
to become a distributor. This bothered me above all else. Glorifying
money for its own sake, scoffing at anyone who tried to reach that goal
by such lofty means as getting an education, making a contribution to
society, etc. I quite couldn't make their world view jibe with mine.
<< I am a teacher who is just starting his career. Full-time job
prospects are not great in the teaching field at the moment, and I am
only getting substitute assignments right now. The somewhat dim outlook
for teachers is partly responsible for my being seduced by the Amway
plan. However, after having witnessed the spectacle I described, and
corroborating my feelings by reading the experiences of others on-line,
I am filled with renewed resolve to stick with a profession that is
personally meaningful. I am glad I had the chance to witness the Amway
recruitment machine, and experience the crassness and manipulativeness
of it all. I thank you for confirming my feelings, and helping me come
to my senses.>>
Well, I understand your worries, and there aren't any easy answers that
I can give you. I do wish you luck, though. I'm pretty young, as I see
that you are, so I still believe in those foolish notions that anyone
who believes in what he does, provides a service that people love him
for, and speaks out against injustice, can probably come out ahead. But
hey, maybe that's just me.
Ultimately my feelings on Amway are that if being recruited causes you
to shift your perspectives and identify your real motivations in life,
and makes you come out more confident and wiser, then it's been useful.
But that doesn't justify the damage it causes to the majority of people
who are tempted by The Plan.
Thanks a lot for writing.
Subject: Thanx
Sun, 8 Feb 1998
Hi Russel,
I'm really glad you received my email after all, and thank you so much for
taking the time to reply to it. You're an articulate and caring person and I
think what you are doing is great. I'm still fairly new to the online
experience, and seeing the internet used in a meaningful, edifying and
personal way like this is really heartening.
By the way, I quite agree with your other emailers that you do have a
definite writing gift. I mean, aside from teaching me more about a subject I
was very interested in, your story was very compelling and entertaining. I can
hardly wait to read your girlfriends upcoming Amway tale. I'll be visiting
your homepage soon as well to see what else turns your crank besides saving
the world from Amway.
Oh, and in regards to your email address. I tried sending you an email by
clicking on the appropriate spot on your page, and the address that did appear
was, in fact, different from the one I now see at the top of this page, so you
may want to look into it.
Anyway, best wishes,
Subject: Your Amway story (part 3) Mon, 09 Feb 1998 Russell, Kudos to U. I have very recently found myself in the exact situation. My mother said "It's a cult", I replied what the hell are you talking about. But, after going to a couple of meetings and seeing these people praise poor speakers, use their breath spay in synchronized movement, do their rhino chear, and all act so sickeningly friendly I too concluded that it fit many criteria of a cult: Tapes, isolation from not believers, etc. etc. ,but here is a couple of things that you may not have given thought to, one of the conditions listed in one of your pages was nutritional deprevation. Is it possible? It's a scary thought, but is it possible that the food system that they are providing to it's members is...(what should I say "altered"). I noticed at one meeting that everybody was lean. I was sitting in a room of approx. 100 people and I couldn't see any overweight people. It cought my eye and I thought it odd, but didn't think any more of it until tonight while reading your story and got to the cult defention part. I don't know what part of the country you are from but in MI they use "all" of the exact same techniques that they used on you. Anyway, thanks for the effort in the page. It's nice to know that I'm not the only intelligent person that almost got his mind sucked out and replaced with dubious food supplements.
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