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Mon, 01 Nov 1999 Subject: AMWAY! YOU ARE REALLY A LOOSER!!!! WHY DO YOU NEED TO BE SO NEGITIVE ABOUT SOMTHING YOU DO'NT KNOW ALOT ABOUT!! IV'E BEEN IN AMWAY FOR ONLY 4 MONTHS AND ALLREADY AM MAKING GOOD MONEY. AMWAY IS ALL REALLY GOOD PEOPLE NOT LOOSERS. WE DO'NT WANT YOUR KIND BECAUSE YOU DO'NT HAVE ANY DREAMS OR AMBISHION. WELL YOUR NOT GOING TO RUIN EVRYTHING FOR THE REST OF US THATS FOR SURE!!! LOOSER!!! YO'LL BE DRIVING MY LIMMO SOME DAY. I MIGHT LET YOU SURVE ME MY DRINKS WHILE IM ON THE BEECH TOO. IM GOING TO BE DIAMOND BEFORE LONG AND YOU WILL SEE. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Hi Russell, Well, did I sound convincing? Actually, even though it was all in fun, is it not far removed from some of the e-mails sent to you by Amway zealots? Recently I stumbled on some Amway sites, including yours. It prompted me to reflect on our own experience years ago. Because my own kids are nearly on their own, and I would very much like to steer them away from any and all MLM's, I decided to capture our story of Amway for their benefit. My memory is not what it used to be, but I was surprised at how much detail I remember from the episode. I'm not sure why. BTW, your own story was interesting, and written about far better than I ever could. I'd be glad to hear from you if you have any questions or comments. Anyway, here it is, in case you have nothing better to do... Jim Robinson ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ It was nearly 20 years ago that my wife Donna and I bought an Amway starter kit. We had been married for only a few years, and had one infant daughter. My salary, as a technician with a state resource agency, was about $750 per month. I was 25 at the time with two years of college. Money was tight, but life was pretty good. One evening I received a call from another technician whom I had become a sometime fishing partner with. I remember being very surprised that (I'll call him Ted) didn't ask how fishing was at the time, only, "Hey Jim, do you want to make some extra money!?" Hmm... Let's see. Well, at a salary of $750 per month, that's a rhetorical question, so I jumped in immediately with, "Sure!" Ted told me he would be in touch soon. I was excited to say the least, but still a bit surprised that Ted didn't even mention our common passion... Fishing. A few days later he called and said that a friend of his would be driving over to talk to me about this business opportunity. "Mick" would tell us all about it. I asked Ted if he would be coming, to which he replied he wouldn't be able to make it. This was no surprise, since Ted lived over 3 hours away. Before we ended the conversation, I asked him if this was anything illegal. He assured me that it wasn't. I felt relieved, and looked forward to hearing from Mick. I remember Mick showed up dressed in a dark suit. I'll admit I was impressed, and felt privileged to have the attention of this businessman. I didn't even own a suit. Mick was very polite friendly and flattering. He brought a board and felt maker and started drawing circles, while asking us about our dreams and whether or not we could use an extra $600 per month. I cut in and asked him, "Is this a pyramid scheme?" He replied, "No." As he began to add numbers and draw more circles, Donna and I became intrigued with the idea of limitless income. Working for a state agency, salaries are predictable and pretty much cast in concrete. Only promotions would result in moving to higher salary ranges. Typically, a promotion results in a salary only about 15% higher than the level below. Mick knew this, and pointed out the lack of significant reward for hard work and promotions with my present employer. It really sunk in, and I became even more interested in what he was showing me. Before long, the name "Amway" was revealed. I had never heard of Amway, and this seemed to really please Mick. He showed us some products, and talked about the wonderful discounts. We liked the idea of this, as both of us did all we could to stretch our dollar as much as possible as it was. Mick left us with some various products and a few tapes. He wanted to come back in a few days, and I agreed. He then said to call some friends and have them come to the house as prospective sponsors of ours. He then told me that if they ask if it's Amway, reply only with, "What do you know about Amway?" I called three friends. The first two calls were brief, and I found myself mimicking Ted when he had called me. Both agreed to come. The last call was to a co-worker, "Will", who was a very good friend. I couldn't bring myself to be even remotely deceitful with him and told him it was Amway. He had heard of Amway, and agreed to come as well. I was thrilled at the notion of 3 sponsors right off the bat! The next day at work Will told me he had changed his mind and wanted to decline the invite. I tried to talk him into just hearing it out. He politely, but firmly said he wasn't interested. That night I called him and once again tried to persuade him to attend the meeting. He was very patient with me but held his ground. Eventually I dropped the matter, but couldn't hide my disappointment. I had even tried to make him feel guilty by implying that he had gone back on his word. It was all to no avail. Soon after I got a call from one of the others I had contacted. He just bluntly told me he would not be coming... Thanks, so long. There wasn't much I could do about that one. Sure enough, the last of the three called me and asked, "Hey Jim, does this have anything to do with Amway?" I was ready, and responded with the appropriate dialog. "What do you know about Amway?" He replied immediately, "TOO MUCH". He then told me his mother had been involved, and that he didn't want anything at all to do with it... EVER! Well I had nothing to say, so I had no choice but to accept defeat. Just that quick, my best three prospects had vanished. On top of that, I really couldn't think of anyone I would feel comfortable approaching. I called Mick to tell him what happened. To my surprise, he said not to worry about it, he would drive over to meet with us anyway. It was also a 3 hour drive for him, and I told him I was amazed that he would do so when I had failed to drum up any prospects. He said that Ted would also be driving over, but later than he. They would like us to attend a meeting in a nearby town. I agreed, but said that Donna wouldn't be able to attend because of our young daughter. Mick said, "just get a baby-sitter." Well, my wife and I NEVER had baby-sitters. We were just not comfortable with the idea. I told Mick that only I would be attending the meeting, and that was all there was too it. He didn't press the point, but I could tell he really wanted Donna to attend too. Donna and I discussed this and didn't like the way it had unfolded. We don't like anyone telling us how to live our personal lives. The next evening Mick showed up right on time. He wore a dark suit as he had before, but this time came in a modest motor home. Once in the house he began to draw circles again. These circles, and the tidy numbers within them certainly had a soothing effect, and soon I was all fired up again. Mick also assured me that there would be plenty of opportunities for sponsoring lots of people in the future. I shouldn't worry about the unmotivated people I had contacted. Someday they could be driving my limo! (That line must be the most often repeated by Amway distributors). I wanted to learn more about Mick, and suggested we take a break for some coffee. He agreed, and we went into the kitchen where I poured us each a cup. Mick had told me before that he was in the commercial fishing business, but since finding Amway he would be giving that up before too long. Commercial fishing is a tough, harsh business on the Oregon coast, and he simply wouldn't need that stress and hard work, thanks to his fast growing income and success with Amway. Mick and I had something in common... Fishing. I wanted to talk fish and fishing with him, partly because I'm interested in the subjects, but also because I wanted to learn about this man. What sort of character did he possess? Was he honest? What about his background? Did he have integrity? Mick revealed nothing, and continually changed the subject back to Amway anytime I got on other subjects. This irritated me somewhat. He said that he had been in Amway for about 6 months. According to him, he was not too far from "going direct". We did have a few Amway related questions for him that he promptly answered with what seemed like satisfying answers. I recall that I told Mick that my wife and I had very serious doubts about our ability to sell the volume of "soap" necessary to achieve the PV goal. He said that the products were so good that it wouldn't be a problem. I remember challenging him again, and reminded him that we lived in a rural (almost remote) area, and didn't know very many people. No, we just couldn't visualize that much "soap" being in demand from us. We also told him that the prices seemed awful high, even if it was concentrated and high quality. At that point, Mick lowered his voice and told us, "Look, the big money isn't in selling the products, it's in sponsoring people. Our particular group focuses on that and doesn't worry about huge volume. Just buy enough for yourself to meet the PV requirements." At that point, I honestly thought that we were being let in on a special secret. We, and our uplines would be cleverly circumventing the system and avoiding any "real work". While all the other Amway distributors across the country were out ringing doorbells, wearing out shoes, and lugging cases of various soaps and cleaners around in their trunks, we would be among the select few who would be getting rich the easy way! Lucky for us we were approached by the smart ones who saw the big picture! While waiting for Ted and Cindy, Mick gave us a demonstration of the "power" of one of the products. It might have been ZOOM, but I can't remember. He rubbed shoe polish all over his hands, then put a little of the Amway product on and rubbed it in for a while. Then he rinsed the whole mess off, and magically his hands were completely clean. I expressed my approval, but inside wasn't really all that impressed. Working within the scientific community, I knew that the proper thing to do would be to test other soap products in the same manner. My guess is that any liquid dish washing detergent would have done just as well. Funny, but I never bothered to try it. I guess I saw the whole thing as a worthless demonstration. About then Ted and his wife "Cindy" showed up. I could hardly believe my eyes! I literally had to suppress a laugh. Ted was dressed in a conservative dark suit, just like Mick. I had never seen him in anything but his work uniform or grubby fishing garb. He had shaved off his beard, and his hair was now SHORT. Remember, this was 1980, and young men's ears were seldom seen. Cindy wore a nice dress. She looked sharp. I dress like a slob, but have always appreciated a well dressed woman. I rode with Ted and Cindy to the meeting. The whole trip they both talked nothing but Amway. I heard about all the wonderful changes in their lives, though there was no mention of any new income. They told me about the sign they pasted on the tube of their TV. It read, "PV NOT TV!" At the parking lot where the meeting was to be held we walked over to Mick's motor home. I was astonished to see that his wife was with him, and so were his two children. He hadn't even mentioned them the whole time he was at our house earlier. He then talked about how great the motor home was because he could show the plan that much more, while his family happily relaxed in their second home. I studied his wife's face for any reaction to this comment, and evidence of her true feelings about their nomadic life, but she revealed nothing. I only remember a few things about the meeting itself. One of the speakers talked about his former routine of coming home from work in the evening, greeting his family then plopping down in front of the TV every night. Same thing over and over... until he found Amway. How it had changed his life! Admittedly, he was a motivating speaker. He used humor effectively to keep things upbeat and interesting. Then, at one point they had a group of distributors stand up in front of the audience. It's possible they were all direct distributors, but I really can't remember. What I do remember is that this group sent a chill down my spine. They were all dressed the same. Their hair was all cut and combed the same. Most striking to me was that they all had the same expression on their faces. Clones! Robots! Brainwashed zombies! Machines! Cult members! I distinctly remember thinking these things. It was the first time I knew that I could never, ever, EVER conform to THAT! I could not possibly become one of "them". They sickened, and disgusted me. The drive back home included more encouraging words from Ted and Cindy. I was still shaken by what I now know to be "Ambots", and said little. I did offer some money for gas, and they both immediately declined. Cindy said, "It's not costing us anything anyway, Jim. We can deduct all the expenses of this trip from our taxes!" I felt compelled to correct her, and said, "Well actually Cindy, you can only deduct it from your INCOME, not your taxes. That in turn MAY reduce your taxes." She quickly turned to Ted for rebuttal, but he affirmed what I had told her. She turned and looked straight ahead, not saying anything for quite a while. I could see she was contemplating the true meaning of a tax deduction. In all fairness, this probably was her own wishful thinking, and not something an upline had told her. Still, I was surprised that a woman in her late twenties would not know that. Clearly, I ruined her day. That evening I told Donna I wanted to give it a go. I felt that there must be normal, successful Amway people, who didn't look like the robots I saw that evening. Surely they were the exception. Actually, I may not have even told Donna about the "ambots." Donna said that she was concerned that I would loose interest in short order, and go back to my passion of fishing to fill my spare time. She would then be burdened with all the Amway responsibility. I got angry, and told her that was complete nonsense (it wasn't). We had a mildly heated argument about it, but eventually both decided to give it a go. I really think much of our decision was based on the fact that we were afraid of missing an opportunity that we might never have again. If we declined, and Ted and Cindy became rich, we might be kicking ourselves and placing blame on each other for not doing it. At any rate, we called Ted and said to get us signed up, and we would send our check. We had been told by Mick earlier that he would hold our check for a week, and he would cheerfully return it if we weren't satisfied with the kit. When we received the kit we dived in and began reading everything, including the fine print. There were a number of things that we had been told that were directly contradicted in the terms, though now I don't remember what specifically they were. It didn't matter then, and it doesn't matter now. The important thing was that we felt very deceived. I called Ted and questioned him. He said that since he was so new himself, he couldn't very well answer technical questions, so he referred me to Mick. Mick did his best to smooth things over, but the fact is that we were told things originally that we now knew were not true. We were angry, and held Mick responsible for deceiving us. Donna and I began to discuss Amway and ourselves from a more realistic standpoint. We both agreed that we could never lie, deceive or manipulate anyone with a clear conscience. Not for the purpose of making money for ourselves, or any other reason for that matter. Money doesn't justify it. I reflected on my response to the friend who had asked me, "is it Amway?" Since when had I ever answered a question with another question? Not only that, my words were exactly what I had been told to say. I suddenly realized that this parroting would likely be the fundamental "skills" that I would need to learn and apply in order to become "successful". We would be trained on what exactly to say in every situation, rather than saying what we felt in our hearts. This wouldn't work for either of us. We wanted out. I called Ted and told him that we had changed our minds, and could he please have Mick send us our check back. Understandably, Ted tried to calm me down and urged me to call Mick who would explain things and all would be well. I said we'd think it over. Later I told Donna that I didn't care to have another conversation with Mick. She agreed. The next day was Saturday, and we piled in the car and drove the 3 hours to Ted's house. No one was home, so we left the kit in their garage with a letter attached apologizing for having their hopes up, then changing our minds. Still, we were not going to be involved with Amway, period. Just as we were ready to leave, Ted and Cindy drove up. It was all rather awkward, but Ted and Cindy were very good about it, and graciously accepted our "resignation". They invited us in, but we declined. I had no ill feelings toward them at all, but would have understood if they might have felt a little let down by us. We parted on good terms that day. Sure enough, a few days later our check was returned. We went on with our lives with no regrets. I saw Ted from time to time, and we even fished together. For the most part Amway was never a topic of discussion, but I do remember Ted proudly announcing to me that Mick had gone direct not too long after our "near miss", and that he was gearing up for his retirement. Ted said nothing of his own Amway success, and I didn't ask. Donna and I both agreed that we sincerely hoped that Ted and Cindy's efforts paid off someday. We would not be jealous of their success. Good luck to them both. I forgot about Amway and focused on my career, moving around the state frequently. In 1987 I became a Manager and settled in at a wonderful spot on the Oregon coast, where we still live today. Ironically, Mick's father lives just down the road from us. I know him a little, but our conversations don't include Amway. I've never asked him about Mick, and never would. About 5 years ago, I was watching the news on TV and was suddenly jolted to attention. The reporter was doing a story on some disgruntled commercial fishermen who were unhappy with a recent regulation change. Guess who they were interviewing. Yep, it was Mick! Well let's see... This was all taking place approximately 14 years after I had been told he had gone direct and was on the verge of retirement. You know, I actually assumed he must love commercial fishing, and just did it as a hobby. After all, he obviously didn't need the income, thanks to Amway. It was about the same time I asked Ted about himself and Amway. He was then, and still is at the same job classification as he was when I met him, and pretty much lives paycheck to paycheck. It doesn't take an accountant to figure out that Amway never worked out for them. Ted told me that his uplines turned out to be jerks, and pulled all kinds of rotten stuff. They weren't getting anywhere because of their uplines and quit about 2 years after they started. There was no mention of how much being in Amway had cost them, and I wouldn't have even thought about possible losses. Recently I stumbled on some reference to Amway on the Internet. That prompted me to do a simple search in Yahoo! I ignored the Amway sites, and instead perused the "others". I was dumfounded at what I learned. Donna and I had never been told about the tapes, nor the need to attend costly functions. Clearly, we would have only learned about these horrendous "business expenses" after we were involved. All this time we naively thought we only missed out on the opportunity to make money. We never even considered the possibility of significant negative cash flow. What we now know is that losing money is a virtual certainty as a new, or even not so new, distributor. No doubt, we would have lost our butts! The other day I looked up Mick's address. Sure enough, he is still in the same town. I jotted down his address and drove by his house while we were on our way north. The house is a modest, one story home of perhaps 1,200 sq. feet. The siding is very much in need of a paint job. There were large leaves from a front yard tree all over the lawn and roof. Parked in the driveway was a van (looked like it might have belonged to a kid) and a Lincoln Continental of perhaps 5 years old. Parked next to the house was a motor home. Certainly it was not the same one as he had nearly 20 years before. This one was nicer, but the paint was badly faded. Well I'm sorry, but I would have a difficult time believing the owner of that house was wealthy. For that matter, it really didn't measure up to the standard of many of the homes on that block. It's tempting for me to phone him up and inquire about his Amway business, but I won't do that. First, I wouldn't feel right about the motive for my call. Second, I'm not sure that a long time Amway distributor would give a completely straight answer. Today our 3 kids are pretty much grown. Two are attending universities, while one is still in high school. Donna has a decent paying job, and we have enough to live a comfortable but not extravagant life. We have one financial regret. We would have put far more money into deferred compensation, IRA's and stock investments. I suppose most people would say the same thing. My son is attending a private university, and tuition costs are staggering to say the least. Aside from that, I have enjoyed my life a great deal since we passed on the Amway opportunity. Our financial standing has had it's ups and downs, but I've also noticed that our happiness has never been related to our monthly income or available spending money. Other things in life are what really count. Jim Robinson - Oct. 1999
Tue, 2 Nov 1999 Subject: My moronic reply to your Amway page I read your story start to finish in one sitting. My heart was pounding because I thought you were going to eventually sabotage that meeting. I joined Amway once in 1990 and then again in 1998. The first time I did it with a friend and just because he was so excited about it. I was leaving for college in a couple months and thought maybe I could pay for college that way or at least make some extra money. At the time I was more interested in partying than anything else so I didn't do much with it. In 1998 I had over 15 MLM's under my belt. I had a useless college degree by then (THAT -college- is a bigger scam than amway) and was just flat out desperate. My boss went to a biz opp meeting and came in to work all excited. "I finally found a way out of here!" I went with him to a meeting and the SAME guy that did the meeting in 1990 was there. I was like "WOW, this really does work!" I told him about me trying it out 8 years earlier and he claimed that it was SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO different now. Higher pay, lower prices, no delivery all that. I joined again thinking that since I was older and on my own that I would have the leverage I needed to motivate myself. I just couldn't do it though. I KNOW, I KNOW I could do it if I would put in the time but it just flat out sucks. As far as being a cult- I think it's more just a group of dorks. They look stupid, they sound stupid, they say the same repetitious shit that's on the tapes as if no one has a mind of their own. Everybody's MODELING the same retarded positive thinking garbage. I know for a fact that there are people making money at it but they are exchanging their entire lives for it. The people that "lose" and drop out- even if they don't know it consciously- they just wake up and see that the money isn't worth it. If I would have seen your site beforehand I could have saved myself all that trouble. I've been reading the mail you got and it's histerical. So far I haven't seen one person offer to show you a check or W-2 form. Hmmmmmmm. I'm still looking for a good home based business but haven't found one yet. Amway isn't alone in Scamland. I look over the internet constantly and all I've found so far are programs to join (for a price) or some manual on how to make money. Nothing solid, real, nothing. You're lucky to have found something that you love to do. Not everyone has that. That's why they fall for shit like Amway. Think about it.... if someone's hard working and determined (exactly what you MUST be in order to succeed in amway) wouldn't you already be doing something with your life? I ain't stroking you here but for you to figure out what you did in only 3 weeks... damn. I was still caught up in all the hype months after my first encounter. It's addictive. Excellent story by the way. You are definately helping people out and saving them alot of time, money and PAIN. I still wish you had trashed that meeting. Maybe I'll do that someday just to be a prick.
Wed, 3 Nov 1999 Subject: Your Amway story (part 2) This is very nice (sarcasm). I think its great that chicken shits like you can go on the internet and say such garbage without having to make such comments face to face like a man. Ok that's off my chest now. The reality is that the so called real business world is much more cruel to the 99.9% of society. Most people will work for someone else all their lives thus making that "someone else" the rich guy. How is Amway different? Many of the books and tapes pushed by the corporation are not even written by Amway, such as "how to win friends and influence people", "7 habits of highly successful people", etc. I can see how someone like you, who will probably never amount to much would be quick to criticize something that works for those who are willing to make something of themselves. The fact is, humans by nature are lazy and only a small percentage of us succeed in anything. MLM's are just one way to earn what you are worth and what you put into it. Our economy allows us to be entreprenuerial and start our own companies when we find something of value to sell. Amway/Quixtar is no different than any other franchise-type opportunity. There is nothing wrong with selling hope. Hope is what keeps humans going. Without hope in something there is no future. Working for others with little to no growing equity in most jobs is insanity.
Fri, 05 Nov 1999 Subject: Finished your Amway story... thanks for your storey, I just had the new recuit experience and it sounded good but I thought I would check the web for any horror stories and came across you. You have stopped me from getting involved with them before I lost any money, thanks a lot russell and good on you for putting on the web. *****...england
Sat, 06 Nov 1999
Subject: Your Amway page...
I just finished reading most of your website concerning Amway and it
could have been me. I just had a very bad experience with Amway/Quixtar
in these last months.
Both my husband and myself worked at a restaurant to pay bills
during college. One of the regular customers was an Amway distributer
and conned my husband into it. I immediatelly started asking
questions. Since I'm in my fourth year of college studying economics,
I wanted to know some hard data. The entire idea behind Amway
contradicted many economic theories. But whenever I asked about
it,the main distributer changed to subject. He was very elusive and
sneaky. He sounded exactly like your description of 'Ted'. When I
asked the other people involved about the inherant 'wrongness' with
Amway they said "Who cares? You'll be making millions!" But, since
my husband already signed up, what to do? So we decided that if it
could make any extra money in it, it was worth it. We treated it as a
second job, little did we know that that was a sin to Amway/Quixtar.
Whenever we tried to do small things, like marketing some of the
items, calling our upline for advice and help, nothing was done. They
comepletely abandoned us because we had other, more important
priorities.
I do understand that it's a business. But what bothers me is
that they preach that it's not. When I asked about competiters to
Quixtar, I was told that there aren't any and won't be for at least
ten years. This defies the entire principle of free competitive
markets. Since then, I've seen competiters galoure. I lost many good
friends and my job because I refused to be a part of it. I've seen
friends buy and buy, and shocked that the return was negative profit.
Meanwhile, other good friends from work started joining
Amway/Quixtar. The entire stress and unfriendliness (and frankly, at
some times, stupidity) of them towards me made me very hostile to
Amway. I also didn't like having to enlist my friends and family in
it. Maipulating my loved ones is not what I do in my free time. My
husband quit because he couldn't take any more and told them to shove
it. Right after my husband quit, the boss fired me (he's a staunch
member).
I would like to know if there is anything I can do to
publicize this deception or even prevent it. Maybe some sort of
grassroots movement, government intervention, even signing a petition,
hopefully something.
It was nice to know that smart people can see through this
cult - like social movement (I've heard that they even have marriage
couseling at their large to-do's). Personal experience has shown me
that it changes people to greedy pigs who only see value in material
objects and other Amway members.
Thank you so much
Sat, 6 Nov 1999 Subject: My reply to your Amway page Bravo! I've had my own experience with Amway. A little different, but just as scary. There's no getting to those people. Just be glad you got out in one piece. If you haven't seen the movie GO, you might want to pick it up. It has a funny piece on network marketing.
Sun, 7 Nov 1999 Subject: Greetings from Czech republic hello, I'm from Czech republic - it's in europe. I'm sorry if you don't understant something because my english isn't perfect. I read your page and i have find some interesting artikles. Please I have question - how is going Amway in other countries ??- I'm from Dexter (I've been) organization and in Czech republic is one Emerald and about 30 directs from Dexter's organization. I'd like to know how many money makes our top Amway distributors tools and how much money makes our intercontinental uplines from tools (Dexter Yager, Rick Setzer and his son David Setzer - who is traveling to czech republic every 1-2 mounts). For example one cassette in our country cost about 140 crowns (1$ = 34 crowns).The tools we are using are almost Czech. Have you some responces (saturation, number of distributors) from other countries ?? Have a nice day PS:I hope you will be patient with my english in email.
Sun, 07 Nov 1999 Subject: Your Amway story (part 3) / reply quick just think of that total Amway sales / number of Amway distributors = 7,000 usd / year x .03%=210 usd p.s spending your life for 210 / year...better get a p/t job conclusion: average amway distributor is a sucker..(sorry..but can you find a better word?) regards frm tasos / athens greece p.s amway contacts me nowdays and i have fun with them by putting their figures down
Mon, 08 Nov 1999 Subject: your amway page hello my name is *****. i'am an amway distributor and have just read your website. one thing that struck me from reading it, and probably why you failed to build the business, is how closed minded you were about everything. its not for me to say how you failed, but i would like to point out that the business works for people who do the work. if i fail to build the business, it will be my fault nad no one else's. my last point is that there are different independent training systems within the world. experiences you might have with one system might be different to another. you are entitled to your opinion and i respect that, but i thought i'd share mine. thanks
Mon, 8 Nov 1999 Subject: Your Amway story (part 3) I'm doing some of my own research on Amway and their new internet opportunity as well. From what I can see the Company looks solid and the internet numbers are remarkable. I realize that its a business for all to take a shot at which would mean the good the bad and the ugly could get involved. It seems to me that its always the bad and the ugly that can make a bad name for a good organiztion. I can't find anything offensive in your site other than the only one that set anyone up was you. There training program (system) seems reasonable, it also seems reasonable that if a distributor makes no money its because they are simply not doing the work. I would be foolish to think that everyone should get rich quick or slow or at all, but I have to beleive that a company over 40 years old has to have some pretty happy people envolved or it would not exist and if it was illegal it would be shut down. I can clearly see that its not for everyone and clearly its not for you, why you take so much time and effort to save the world from Amway is confusing to me. >From what I know of a cult I don't see anything that resembles Jimmy Jones or David Koresh here, in fact I probably have met as many ex Amway people and most said that even though they did not make a lot or if any money in Amway their experiance was a positive one. I have also met a few Amway people that have made some money in Amway. I have probably met as many people who have lost money in a conventional business too. Even though you are most likely wasteing you time trying to save the World from Amway its probably doing Amway people more good, I'm sure it keeps them on their toes and accountable for their existing business and their new internet adventure and protects people like me that are more than likely to give Amway a shot. Mon, 8 Nov 1999 Subject: Your Amway page... Russel, I am curious how much you make off Boost 99? I would like to know befor I send in my $30.00.
Wed, 10 Nov 1999 Subject: Re: Your Amway story (part 3) > Russel, I am curious how much you make off Boost 99? I would like to > know befor I send in my $30.00. I have never heard of Boost 99, and I don't know why I would expect to make any money off of it. If that was humor, it went over my head. > I'm doing some of my own research on Amway and their new internet > opportunity as well. From what I can see the Company looks solid and the > internet numbers are remarkable. When you say "the internet numbers" I assume you are referring to Quixtar, Amway's online venture. Correct me if I'm wrong. I do not see the numbers for Quixtar as remarkable. On their first week they ostensibly received 40 million hits, yet only sold 1 million dollars worth of products. The fact is that Quixtar was aggressively pre-sold to Amway distributors who were willing to join up without even seeing or evaluating the site ahead of time. From the experience I've had so far, Quixtar is neither user-friendly nor well-made nor competitively priced. It is understandable that their traffic would have been high during its open period, considering the extensive marketing that was done on it in advance of its opening. Let us not forget the fate of the movie "Last Action Hero" when we assume that strong early marketing equals healthy long-term sales. > I realize that its a business for all to take a shot at which would > mean the good the bad and the ugly could get involved. It seems to > me that its always the bad and the ugly that can make a bad name for > a good organiztion. To some extent this is quite true. > I can't find anything offensive in your > site other than the only one that set anyone up was you. It is, of course, your prerogative to take offense to whatever you choose. I did my best to present the story as it happened, without doctoring it to make myself look good. Nevertheless, I think you should agree that if my perception was correct -- that if the Amway system is, in fact, a self-perpetuating scam designed to remove money from the gullible while telling them that they will be getting rich -- then I was justified in wanting to exit and warn a few people on my way out. > There training > program (system) seems reasonable, it also seems reasonable that if a > distributor makes no money its because they are simply not doing the work. I've addressed this point already on my "Frequently Posed Arguments" page. See http://mouse.yi.org/rglasser/amway/argument/index.html#lazy Look at it this way: Amway distributors approach other people and ask them to get involved, not the other way around. They pull potentially intelligent, competent people off of their normal jobs by misrepresenting potential incomes and retirement scenarios. If recruits were honestly told that fewer than 1% of all distributors make more than a few dollars a month, do you think as many would join? Whether or not they're inclined to do the work, I say this level of dishonesty is reprehensible. > I would be foolish to think that everyone should get rich quick or > slow or at all, but I have to beleive that a company over 40 years > old has to have some pretty happy people envolved or it would not > exist and if it was illegal it would be shut down. There are also evidently a number of very unhappy people involved, considering how they have a turnover rate of half their distributors leaving every year, to be replaced by new people who are unaware of the problems. For further indication, I invite you to read all the emails I've received over the last several years. As far as the legality issue goes, see http://mouse.yi.org/rglasser/amway/argument/index.html#lazy ; have you actually read the 1979 FTC case? And, do you really believe, based on what you've heard, that distributors generally sell to customers more than they try to recruit other distributors? Check up on the ten customer rule -- without it, their borderline legality is a sham. > I can clearly see that its not for everyone and clearly its not > for you, why you take so much time and effort to save the world from > Amway is confusing to me. From what I know of a cult I don't see > anything that resembles Jimmy Jones or David Koresh here, In that case, you need to reread part 2 and review the definition of a harmful cult. > in fact I probably have met > as many ex Amway people and most said that even though they did not make a > lot or if any money in Amway their experiance was a positive one. I have > also met a few Amway people that have made some money in Amway. I have > probably met as many people who have lost money in a conventional business > too. Even though you are most likely wasteing you time trying to save the > World from Amway its probably doing Amway people more good, I'm sure it > keeps them on their toes and accountable for their existing business and > their new internet adventure and protects people like me that are more > than likely to give Amway a shot. As I've said, you are responsible for your own actions and free to do what you want. All I've done is raise some issues that bear looking into. If you choose to investigate the claims of Quixtar pushers yourself, I predict you'll find that (a) They are not competitively priced, making this a poor choice of a business opportunity; (b) you spend far above what you make, consistently; (c) 99% of the people you meet will be making a pittance or losing money, yet finding a way to justify it. If this is what you want in a business opportunity, I'm not stopping you.
Wed, 10 Nov 1999 Subject: Re: Your Amway story (part 3) Russell, Thanks for your response. I did not read anything into it that would change my mind about giving the Amway business a shot. I am also not convinced that your site is not a cleaver way for you to make money by sending unsuspecting potential Amway distributors or even X-Amway distributors via links to other commercial sites. That is how I come accross Boost 99, if they are not sending you a residual, they should be. Best regards
Wed, 10 Nov 1999 Subject: Re: Your Amway story (part 3) Dagwood wrote: > > Russell, Thanks for your response. I did not read anything into it that > would change my mind about giving the Amway business a shot. Again, that is your choice, so best of luck to you. Feel free to check in next year and gloat about how well you're doing; but if you do, please be precise and thorough. I'll want to hear actual dollar amounts, minus all expenses, not some vague BS about how you feel like you've grown as a person despite the thousands you've spent. > I am also not > convinced that your site is not a cleaver way for you to make money by > sending unsuspecting potential Amway distributors or even X-Amway > distributors via links to other commercial sites. I haven't made a dime off of my site; it's strictly for pleasure. I also don't have any commercial links. > That is how I come accross > Boost 99, if they are not sending you a residual, they should be. You still haven't told me what it is yet. But go ahead and tell them to send me money if you think that; you never know. ;)
Mon, 8 Nov 1999 Subject: Your Amway story (part 3) Good writing. I just warded off a Amway soliciter earlier this year. He was pushing selling on the internet and how they will be very successfull doing so. But, he had no idea about Ecommerce or any true Business sense. Good to know that I am not alone in hating Amway.
Mon, 8 Nov 1999 Subject: Your Amway Site Hi, Russell! Great Amway site! I have never been prospected by an MLM, rather I came across Amway while researching "mind control cults". I find it shocking how people can be so willingly duped by the "System" you (and others) describe... I think your "Arguments" page is very well-written and persuasive. Although it seems so obvious to me that Amway is a scam, I think I would hesitate to ever attend an Amway function. I have a healthy respect for the power of these kind of organizations - and while I can easily sit back and feel smarter than those who are "sucked in", I don't imagine I (or anyone else) am totally immune to their tactics. I think the rallies and events may well be seductive enough that I simply would not want to subject myself to it, even armed as I am with the knowledge of the system... As an aside, I had a friend at one time who shared a sense of skepticism with me about cults in general, who told me last year that he had just joined one of the cults we had discussed in detail... (He prefaced the letter with "I know this may upset you, but...) It wasn't Amway, btw, but I considered him one of the more intelligent people I know... I think the most effective tactic for steering clear of Amway and other such groups is simply by steering clear - so I think your site, aimed as it is at warning people to stay away, is appropriately targeted - I think trying to clear heads from people already deeply involved is probably difficult, and ultimately futile. And I am reminded here of your story about "crashing" the Amway party and giving the material to that one young lady, who promptly "turned you in..." Kudos again for a very well-written story and site!
Tue, 09 Nov 1999 Subject: Ginny's Amway story (part 3) Hi, Ginny! I would like to share my story with you and get your advice on how to get my husband away from Amway for good, if you will be kind enough to help. When we joined Amway, we were 19 and 20 years old. I had moved out of my parents house because they were so controlling with me. I decided to move in with my boyfriend and his mom and little brother because his mom offered to take me in, and my she saw how terrible my parents were treating me. My boyfriend, Michael, and I decided that even if it didn't work out, we would live together until we both went away to school in the fall. Well, we ended up getting engaged. Shortly after this, my grandfather, the only one in my family who spoke to me at the time, had introduced me to his girlfriend. Yes, he still dated my grandmother and his second ex-wife at the same time. I, however, did not believe my family when they tried to tell me this because we were fighting a lot. So, she called us up one day as we were getting our laundry together to take to a relative's house to do, we were too poor to pay for the laundromat. We were invited to our first Amway meeting. Of course we didn't talk to anyone to ask their opinions of Amway because we didn't get along with our families very well. Also, my dad just got shown the plan in the last year and he hated Amway so since I did not like my parents at the time this was perfect. I would show him up by becoming a millionaire! So, our sponsor was and is my grandfather's girlfriend. She paid for our kit($300) and our first function($500) and a bunch of products($500). One month after we signed up for the business, we got married, although the business had nothing to do with this. Then we went away to school(1.5 hours away) against upline's better judgement, of course. Three months after we were married, we found out we were expecting a baby. We moved back home, in our own apartment, and by this time we were getting along better with both of our families. Now, we have been in the business for over two years and we still do not have her paid off. My husband is finishing school and we have a fifteen month old and one on the way this Feb. When my husband is done with school in Feb. 2001, we can easily pay her off, but that still gives her control for the time being. So far, I got my husband to cancel the tapes, books, and Amvox, and we no longer go to functions or meetings. But he still wants to renew into both quixtar and amway. Which might be our best bet since we owe our sponsor all this money. I feel as though she preyed on us when we were vulnerable and naive and I wish we had never been so stupid. Please don't publish our story as we are still involved with this awful business. I am slowly getting my husband away from it, but I just need to get that last little bit out of his fingers. I do not know how to make him truly see the light. Any advice? Thanks a lot
Tue, 9 Nov 1999 Subject: your amway story (part 2) <<>> Which function ticket costs $500? What do people in business meetings normally talk about? Every one that I've ever been to at my job was about money, why should the Amway business be any different? Your description of cults looks more like liberal DNC Clinton/Gore tactics used on non-thinking individuals rather than my upline.
Wed, 10 Nov 1999 Subject: Re: your amway story (part 2) > Which function ticket costs $500? > "Family reunions" are the most expensive functions, I believe, and once you factor in airfare and hotel accomodations you will be well over that figure. > What do people in business meetings normally talk about? Every one that > I've ever been to at my job was about money, why should the Amway business > be any different? > You have a different job than I do. Being a software engineer, my (infrequent) meetings tend to be about high level topics such as products, features, implementation details, user friendliness -- you know, that kind of insignificant garbage that actually generates customers. > Your description of cults looks more like liberal DNC Clinton/Gore tactics > used on non-thinking individuals rather than my upline. > Oh really? I'd be interested in hearing how, specifically, you read that into it. It's the Cult Awareness Network's defintion, not mine.
Thu, 11 Nov 1999 Subject: My reply to your Amway page May I introduce myself to you? I am Korean and mainly working as information searcher. I found some sites and news about amway and quixtar in internet and feel very interested about it. I would like to know about business associated with amway. I have also visited quixtar site, however I couldn't enter the site as I don't have my ID and password. If you are a member of quixtar site, could you kindly allow me to use your ID to visit it. If possible, please let me informed your ID and password. It would be very appreciated for me to understand amway and quixtar. Expecting your kind reply. Best regards
Thu, 11 Nov 1999
Subject: Your Amway story (part 3)
I read with interest your Amway saga. I was in Amway a few years ago,
just never had the time needed to put it all together. I did like their
products, many were too high, but there were some good buys. No one ever
treated me like you were treated and my upline(I don't even remember who
they were) were just ordinary people that were very nice. I am a realtor
and get a lot of people through Amway relocation. Of course they are all in
Amway and some really great people. No one has ever tried to recruit me and
in fact no one has even talked about their business except to say they have
a home based business. I would be happy to call any of these people my
friends. I think you had a bad experience but I dont' know how you can say
the whole idea is bad. I am not interested in Amway but have several
friends who are in Quixtar and really like ordering off the computer. Oh
well, just thought I would let you know there are some Amway people out
there who are very nice.
Fri, 12 Nov 1999
Subject: Your Amway page...
Mr. Glasser. I've probably written before, but I frequently am overcome
with this urge to send Anti-Amway e-mail, and to thank people like yourself
who have put up web pages helping to expose this terrible MLM system.
Keep up the good work.
Fri, 12 Nov 1999 Subject: Re: Your Amway page... You're welcome, and thank YOU for the support and good wishes that you offer.
Sun, 14 Nov 1999 Subject: Your Amway page...have you heard of ALPHA CLUB?? Hi there, I was just passing by your page because I was first introduced to Amway a few years back..but I denied to join because I found to many unethical reasons to join. Well anyhow, today I went to this thing called The Alpha Club..It runs in basically the same way as Amway but offers services rather than tangible products. The membership startup fee is alot more but same idea. What bothers me is how flawless this system works, but it seems like none of the members have taken the time to think about when this thing will end??..Anyhow I don't know what all I'm saying is making sense, but I'm a definite ANTI AMWAY..and ANTI Alpha...Well I'd love to hear from you if you've heard about the alpha club or not...and If you have'nt then the site is located at www.thealphaclub.com ...well maybe i'll hear what you have to say about this organization?
Sun, 14 Nov 1999 Subject: Your Amway story (part 3) I viewed your web page about your Amway experience.............I must say that I can definetly relate to it. I too had a brief encounter with the Amway people......but how they got me involved was by the new business Quixtar.....you may have heard about it. (www.quixtar.com) Before I go any further....here is some background on me: I am single, and I have a Bachelor of Science in Electrical Engineering (May 97). Anyway, I went to a meeting that was to be about a new business forming on the Internet. It was an E-Commerce site called Quixtar. This sounded interesting to me because anyone who is remotely understands the Internet knows that it can be used to generate money, advertisement, and etc. So I said what the heck....lets see what I can do. But.........what I failed to pick up on was the fact that you had to join Amway before the launching of the Quixtar website on 9/1/99. I signed up for Quixtar in February 99. I thought that I would just sit idle for a couple of months and work on creating a website for my "NEW ECOMMERCE" business. (Little did I know!) The Amway people...upline and above.....kept asking me to come to all (6-12) of those meetings a month. Buy those god forbidden, repetetive, motivational, and noninformal tapes and books. Pay for the conferences that were nothing more than large motivational forums. And also, buy (order) weekly Amway products at the "DIRECT'S House." In total, I think that I blew a total of $200 on this Amway Crap during the time that I was in it. Please note that $150 of that was for that stupid start up kit! The other $50 was spread out in meeting fees, gas, 1 tape and 1 book. The main reason why I stopped is because I was so DISAPPOINTED when I figured out how these guys make money. Yes!.......they do make some money off of those very popular Amway products. But where the real money is made lies with the BOOKS, TAPES, and those god forbidden MEETINGS or MONEY RALLYING SESSIONS!!!!! ....Just like you have noted...the friendly/christian/trustworthy (I am being sarcastic)people of Amway keep telling you to buy a "crate load" of tapes and books every month.....Then one should listen and read everyday. Excuse my FRENCH........but that was BULL SHIT! And I am so glad that I asked myself: Where will that money go? Right into their pockets.....Think about this: they take a $0.60, record some ridiculous motivational speech on it, and sale it by the masses for $6.00. That is how those idiots make money....and a lot of it. Also, those people that speak at those functions....they get paid by the thousands also. To end this up.......I was so disappointed in myself for getting involved with this crap! I was in it for about 3 months, and then left....i was not even a member when the quixtar crap was launched. I could not believe that i let myself get manipulated like that.......I thought I was smart.....but I guess it happens to the best. hahahahaha But anyway, I feel so sorry for people like "Ted"....he is so brainwashed right now that I believe he knows no better! He reminded me of the guy named Reggie that got me involved. The only positive thing that I can say that is that I only blew $200. That does not bother me because I can spend $200 on a good Friday night. As far as yourself.....that was a very good article that you had put on the Internet. Keep up the good work! PS Whatever happened to Heather?
Sun, 14 Nov 1999 Subject: Re: Your Amway story (part 3) Beats me... I never heard from anyone involved again. Except there was this one surreal episode where "Ted" spent some time in a business near my office (they design web pages). I saw him in the hall, so I went in and said hi. For the record, he didn't look happy to see me. That was over two years ago, though.
Mon, 15 Nov 1999 Subject: Finished your Amway story... Dear Russell, Here I am on the brink of the Amway Experience! I went to a meeting just over a week ago, and being the impulsive woman that I am , signed up the next day (what was I thinking?). Anyhow, I have had one at home meeting which was depressing to say the least - my friends being a bunch of cynics who were not interested- and tonight is the second meeting. I started researching Amway because a friend I rang to invite to the meeting advised me to, and came across your story. Well now all I want to do is cancel the meeting! I have been progressively feeling uneasy about the whole thing - I am a student/ single mum and I know that I can have a good income in a couple of years anyway. Also, whats so great about being rich? I've been poor for years, and I'm happy! Thanks so much for posting your story, I am going to go and devise some Amway-like tactics to get out of this mess. God Bless
Wed, 17 Nov 1999 Subject: Enquiry about Amway. Dear Russell. Your Home Page as well as your articles are most informative.Could you please give me some idea on the possible affiliation,(commercial/religious),of Amway with The Assemblies of God?If there is some connection,what is its nature and how binding is it on a member of that religious organisation?My daughter decided to join that religion, and she is expecting a sizeable inheritance from her Mother,which puts us in a dilemma regarding the future use of that inheritance. Could you please help us with your clear-sighted advice and with some unrefutable facts.Thank mou very much for your kind advice in advance.Kind regards,
Wed, 17 Nov 1999 Subject: Re: Enquiry about Amway. No facts are irrefutable. I do not know of any relationship between Amway and the Assemblies of God (I have not actually heard of the latter). I do know that Amway leaders tend to be heavily right wing and support various religious groups. Has she mentioned Amway specifically? Remember that all sorts of cults use their members' money as a means of control and expansion, and this practice is not limited to Amway. Even if there is no relationship, you may have good reason to be worried. Clearly you know how to use the web to find information; have you searched for Assemblies of God and cults?
Wed, 17 Nov 1999 Subject: Your Amway page... from justin-ive been in amway 13 years-never took the time to read your whole site- you must be having a ball getting under amway peoples skin! kind of funny. obviously the same could be done with every business in america. amway has got to be the most inexpensive business to build and maintain in the country-500.00 a month to build a successful business? thats phenomenol! main negative-if you dont work hard you wont make it. duh. e mail me - im one that makes my living in this business and i love it- gotta run - theres a function tonite- gotta give my 6 bucks to the system- gee that will break me. smile. have a good day and take care. sincerely-***** in portland
Fri, 19 Nov 1999 Subject: Amway Hi Russell... Just wanted you to know that you are reaching people through the Internet. Those in Amway are the ones deceived - not the ones getting out. I fell for the Quixtar challenge in August '99. I am now letting go of my link to Quixtar/Amway. I thought maybe it was just the people I was dealing with directly that were giving half truths - I didn't take the time to realize that this is a business of duplication so therefore they are teaching what they were taught. Personally, I do not want to pass this lifestyle on to anyone. Again, thanks for taking the time to share your experience. ;-)
Sun, 21 Nov 1999 Subject: Your Amway story (part 1) I wouldn`t dream of insulting you. Unlike yourself, I was involved in Amway in the U.K for just over a year. More to the point, I witnessed a friend (Upline Sponsor) prostitute himself to "the dream" to an extent that was frankly disturbing. He failed as comprehensively as a person can fail. I`ll tell you about it sometime...you will find it rather interesting. I developed serious doubts a few months into the regime. I guess I really can`t suspend disbelief in the face of contrary evidence enough to make the grade as a full-blown Amway person-thank God. I`ve printed a lot of your material out for the benefit of the person I sponsored. He`ll be interested to see where twelve months of his life went also...Regards.
Wed, 24 Nov 1999 Subject: Your Amway story (part 2) Hi I have been matching this Amway site and others I have also attended a number of meetings to make up my mind about this, as I have been in another type of network marketing system before that I spent much money to get the items in order to show the possible buyers, this was a waste of time. I was so sceptical of Amway at first I refused them entrance to my house when a friend asked me to have a look at the plan. BUT I found their tapes and that I listened to very motivating to my own business and so went on to the meetings, having asked questions now for four months I find very little that does not make a lot of sense and have obtained a number of facts. I do believe there is money to be made. the tapes and books would not be a necessity for me as I am aware what it takes to run a business, these seem to be for the person who requires continual encouragement, I have spoken to the people who have lent me the tapes and they would be more than willing to lend me tapes for a few day should I want them the only tapes they pushed was the first set of 4 tapes that they call the 'systems for success . the so called up line in my case, have themselves been making R6000-7000 per month in 10 months of work they have other jobs and seem very stable not the frantic sales type who are pains in the butt! I feel this is an opportunity and if its possible to make extra money on a time leverage basis - then why not give it a chance. I have used several of the products that at first seemed expensive but I am very happy with the excellent quality- so I will be using these products again. ALL THIS AND I AM NOT A DISTRIBUTOR !! your warnings are wise but I feel they are generalising.
Fri, 26 Nov 1999 Subject: My reply to your Amway page Hi there I signed up with Amway just about two weeks ago, together with my husband. His cousin had invited us to see the Plan, so knowing it was most likely a MLM scheme we went along just to please her. We were excited by the prospect of being able to retire in a few years, and we were sold on getting the initial joining fee back if we decided not to keep going within three months, so we signed up on the spot. Bad move I suppose. :) Time will tell. We're not seeing any particularly negative things right now. I think based on what I've seen on the web that Amway New Zealand might not be quite as 'cultish' as Amway America. However, I am a skeptic, a rationalist, and a die-hard cynic, so I've turned to that completey free mine of information - the WWW. So far I haven't been thrilled. At best it looks like the chances of actually making money are minimal, at worst it looks like almost a dangerous cult. I can totally relate, BTW, to your comments about just not liking the Amway people! I like my hubby's cousin, and I like her uplink, who we've dealt with more than herself, but I've not seen many people at the meetings that I would normally want to associate with. Our tale so far, financially, is that we've bought $130 worth of product, sold $220 worth at retail to others, and spent about $45 on Amway-related things that don't generate income (food and drink for a sales pitch we held). Plus the $130 joining fee. (All figures NZ$). For all that spending we've earned about $50 on the sales, not looking like enough PV this month for a rebate, and will have to pay tax on the $50. It ain't looking too rosy right now. I am not yet convinced to leave, either. I have a few other pages to visit, and will read the other mail you've received (haven't done that yet). Then there's the dilemma of "am I just looking for justification of my negative feelings towards Amway?" I'm a skeptic even to myself! :) Well, your page has been a start to internet enlightenment. I certainly intend to print out and show to the cousin and her uplink any stuff I can find which succinctly shows the bad things about Amway, if I think it's relevant to NZ. So, uh, thanks for putting your experience on the web. It's helped as a starting point, whatever I decide to do from here. Maybe I'll remember to let you know when I've decided! :) I wish you every success in gamewriting, and hope that one day you can to back to Ted and Phil and show them how much more successful than them you are! This message comes to you through the magic of Tigger! Appreciate me, cos basically, I'm brilliant :)
Sat, 27 Nov 1999 Subject: Finished your Amway story... No, don't believe I actually read it all because I haven't yet, but after hearing an hour of absolute VAGUE, comparisons with McDonald's of all things, and some bad geography about the parent location, I went surfing. I couldn't open THEIR page but I did get yours, and others, and I have a feeling my first impression was right. Do you have "Amway experiences" and/or explanations of pyramid schemes in other languages, preferably (or rather immediately) Italian, that I might print and distribute? I have the advantage of being bilingual and on the net - the others that were there tonight don't. Thanks
Mon, 29 Nov 1999
Subject: Finished your Amway story...
Hi Russel :)
Thanks for putting your page and your experiences on the net. Don't let
"them" stop you from telling YOUR story. Thank goodness for free speech.
My story... Two really close friends of mine, who are married to each
other (I've known them nearly 10 years now, We went to school and
university together, I was best-man at their wedding last year and I
previously shared a flat with them on two occasions for over six months at
a time), anyway they have joined quixtar. At first I was pretty open about
it all and may have ended up joining myself (not knowing anything about it,
like that it is Amway in disguise) if it wasn't for the information and
interesting personal experiences of yourself and others similar to it that
I read on the WWW.
When I read all of this, I was very concerned for my friends. When I
talked to them I brought up all the info that I had read and could
remember. Near the end of the conversation, I could tell that they were
getting pretty angry about what I was saying, but I also was not purely
"logical" myself (I now regret my approach and feel sorry that I was so
direct). Unfortunately that is the problem when dealing with peoples
dreams and emotions. In the end he screamed at me to "get out of his
house!". It was the first time in ten years that he had ever yelled with
such emotion at me and we had never asked (or told) each other to leave.
Sure we had our problems in the past, some very serious ones too, but
never has either one of us acted in such pure rage and hate (I'm not a
Christian and both of them are, and we've had some interesting discussions,
but we were still friends, even when I disagreed strongly with him). If I
didn't leave at that point, I'm sure it would have got physical (We've
never brawled out of anger, just good natured fun :-)
My God! I was so shocked. How could someone I know so closely for so long
changed so much? In such a short amount of time? I was so sure that our
friendship could withstand anything, and that we could "analyse" this new
"business" of his. How wrong I was! How ironic it was that the first
person I talked to after leaving his house was his sister in law. I am a
bit embarrassed to say that I did cry on her shoulder for some time. I can
get rather emotional at times, but hey, the harder you love, the harder you
fall.
Since that day (2-3 months ago), He hasn't talked to me, except in passing
("hi, umm... bye" type conversations). How come he and his wife go out of
their way to avoid me? I'm not a dream stealer, just a person that says
"Lets have a little grain of salt with that". I still care deeply for
them, but I think we will never have what we once did. It makes me very
sorry and sad to see what his life has become. yuck! At least I only have
to work 38 hours a week at my *JOB* and get paid very well for something I
_actually_ enjoy doing (computers, what else?) It seems to me that he is
well on the way to become an "ambot", work all the time for no pay, for
people who really don't give two hoots about you and just want to build
their downline. Sure big business do similar things, but at least they
don't pretend to be my "new family" just because I buy something from them.
Sorry about rambling there, still very difficult to talk about. But thanks
for the really good info. It's stopped me from getting sucked in and a
heap like me judging by e-mail you receive. (All I can say is "Wow") It's
a shame to see amway break up families and friends the way it does.
Remember, "Success" is not always measured in dollars.
Many thanks and keep up the good work and those witty comments :)
Wed, 01 Dec 1999
Subject: Ginny's Amway story (part 3)
Dear Ginny,
i read your story and found it compelling. I'm a 42 year old man, and I
have been approached by 3 different people to join this amway thing. At
first, I could not figure out why I was chosen by these persons. But I
soon realized that each of those who approached me heard me complaining
of job stress or some other form of dissatisfaction. So I made myself a
target for the pitch. I was always asked"What are your dreams?".
Almost everyone wants something that they don't have. And I was
told about all these ex bus drivers and janitors who retired with
residual six-figure incomes. This stuff is used to make you think that
all you have to do is follow a formula and voila-you're a diamond
direct. And if you don't succeed, you are made to feel that there is
something defective about you. This is similar to what quack doctors
tell patients when the baseless treatment doesn't work; you didn't apply
it right or not in time or some other thing.
The approach these people use has made me uneasy. I get the feeling
that I'm being sized up, and it creeps me out. I think you do the public
a great service by publishing your story. I'm sorry that all that
happened to you, but I'm glad you're okay now.
Thanks "r"
Wed, 1 Dec 1999 Subject: My reply to your Amway page No offense intended to you but I do know real people who have become wealthy in Amway. One of my own distributors sent a letter to her aunt who told her about her experiences. She had retired as an emerald making a couple hundred thousand dollars a month. She was no longer active in the building of the business but continues to reap the benefits of her past activity in the business. Just like any real and legitimate business it takes a lot of time and effort. Thanks for your time. Good luck in whatever you choose to do in your life!
Fri, 3 Dec 1999 Subject: amway page hi, just read your amway page. A friend of mine is starting to get into "Quixtar" so I also took their advice to "be a winner and start my own business." I wrote up an official looking contract (which I guess I could even get notarized) that hires my firm as the sole management consultant and accountant to my friend's "IBO". She has to pay me 5% of all earnings she gets from Amway. All I have to do is figure out how to steal shit from them. Considering her sunk costs are already approaching $250, I don't think she's going to get rich anytime soon, but we will have a lot of fun when the campus Marxist group (of which I am a proud member) suddenly decides to crash Quixtar motivational meetings with our red flags and Worker's Vanguard newsletters. oh, and www.boysetsfire.com Marxist music for you!
Fri, 03 Dec 1999 Subject: Re: amway page Sounds like fun, but doesn't it seem a little like trying to skim money off of poor, innocent bourgeosis? ;)
Fri, 3 Dec 1999 Subject: Re: amway page Its more the principle of the action that's important than any actual profit I'd make. There are a lot of ditzy people on campus with too much money that will certainly buy into overpriced catalog products. Amway might turn out to be an excellent tool for redistribution of wealth as long as we can prevent the money from going into the hands of the "upline" people, who I've recently met. They remind me suspiciously of Scientologists, another fun group of people to pick on. >"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one >persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all >progress depends on the unreasonable man." > -- George Bernard Shaw I've never read Shaw before or heard this quote outside of my own thoughts, but it makes perfect sense and I agree wholeheartedly. happy coding
Sat, 04 Dec 1999
Subject: Your Amway story (part 3)
R,
Great story...glad you got out alive.....the responses are if
interest too...I just wish I would have found this site and your story
sooner....A friend of mine, well she got taken to the cleaners.....wiped
out......always hoping that around the next turn was that pot of
gold.....oh, well live and learn.....she's doing better now...working a
normal job as a Head Nurse.
Live long a continued successes.
Sat, 04 Dec 1999 Subject: Date: Sat, 04 Dec 1999 16:15:22 CST Your "page" or site is your opinion and you are entitled to it, but your negativity, skepticism, and cynicism is sad to see. Every once in a while I run into a page like this and I will scan over what the "Anti's" spend effort on. Its pretty funny in some respects but sad that people have crazy ways of thinking. I read a story on a page where a lady was driving to an Amway function and her transmission fell out of her car. She blamed Amway for what happened! I got a good laugh out of that one. I had a friend that was ran over and killed by a car while he was away on a college function, should we be mad at the college for something the college had nothing to do with? Come on people, you have the ability to choose, nd move on. You should do a web site on how alcohol and tobacco are so harmful to people-then it would have purpose!
Mon, 6 Dec 1999 Subject: Your Amway story (part 2) My God! I have been a distributer for only 1 year but I cannot believe you would put such a thing on the net! A cult? A lot of good people are in the Amway business. A lot of good people succeed. Its not right to just say the negatives. I personally have never been forced to do anything. Your core of the business is so far fetched its not even funny.
Tue, 7 Dec 1999 Subject: amway! Dear sir, I have just been to a Network 21 open plan. This is the support system fro the networking business. Maybe youve heard of it. Like you, i havent found anything interesting from this aside from what they keep on saying that ill be able to earn a lot of money. the tapes, for me, are trash. i dont know why the uplines keep convincing us to buy them. ive heard some os the tapes because i borrowed some from the members, and they all tell you the same garbage. i dont need tapes to keep me motivated in something. if i want to do something, i will. people with inferior minds need those tapes to motivate them. im not that dumb. i havent signed up with the business. im still gonna check it out but im not gonna shell out any cash. just wanted you to hear from me. hope ill hear from you soon. thanks! http://www.beer.com
Wed, 08 Dec 1999 Subject: Your Amway story (part 3) Great story. I couldn't stop reading. I had the very same experience with a company called WMA (World Marketing Alliance), they sell financial services. They are molded from Amway in every way.
Wed, 8 Dec 1999
Subject: Finished your Amway story...
Denton, TX
December 8, 1999
Mr. Glasser,
I just happened across the description of your experience with
Amway. I read the whole thing! It was a very interesting, well-written
story. I have never been involved with Amway in any way, but I have
observed other people getting scammed by Amway.
I have a friend --- a Russian girl with a PhD in chemistry --- who came here
to Denton to do research in chemistry at the University of North Texas.
One day she invited me to go with her to a "business" meeting over in
Arlington. I knew right away what it was. Just as you explained Amway's
practice is to keep the name of the company secret, at first. I went
anyway, partly out of curiosity and partly to find some way to save my
friend from Amway's clutches. She was so enthusiastic about making a lot
of money. I just couldn't bring myself to tell her directly that nobody
really buys or sells any of those Amway "products" ---- that it's really
just a pyramid scheme. I did explain to her that most Americans don't
really want to go around their neighborhood asking their neighbors to buy
household supplies (or anything else). Anyway, the girl married a fellow
Russian a year or so later, and they moved to Canada, and I think she has
wised up. But just in case, I'm going to give her the address of your
write-up. I'm SURE that will clear it up for her!
Thanks for telling us about it!
This is from a buddy of mine, and knowing him, I'm not surprised that this Amway Mad Lib is even more demented than usual...
Fri, 10 Dec 1999 Subject: A funny Amway Mad Lib for you My first attempt at Amway Mad Libs, and you will doubtless recognize some of the words I've used.... The valuable gem is a word I made up, and obviously there was no one named Bubba in the room. Just thought you might find this slightly interesting. -Wanky Splod Dear useless Penis, You are so incredibly useless that I just can't believe it. You deserve to trot. I hope you always remember the words of the famous perisephilium Bill Cosby, who said: "DDDDDIIIIEEE MMMMOOOTTTHHHEEERRFFFFUUUCCKKKKEEERRRRRRR!" Boy, I'll bet that old Bill Cosby could really teach you a thing or two! Here's a person who makes over 1 million dollars every month. Do YOU make that much, you useless Penis? If not, then you are obviously wasting my time. My upline cat, who made 4 dollars last year from his Amway business alone, told me that nobody likes a 2x4. And that is exactly what you are, a great big 2x4. In closing, I would like to say that although I respect your right to kiss your opinion, you obviously have as much intelligence as a beer bottle, and while I become limp and ravenous you will be serving me my tofu and selling an evening with Madonna to me. I wish you success in whatever you do, and I of course bear you no ill will. happily, Bubba (A limp distributor) -- Gilbert Quintana
Mon, 13 Dec 1999
Subject: My reply to your Amway page
Russell,
I must say, there is allot of interesting stuff on your page!
Especially the letters you get. Although I can't help but feel there are
allot of pathetic people out there.
My wife and I were introduced to the "Amway opportunity" just
before, I wouldn't say a financial set back, more like a financial let down.
Which led to us being involved, for about five years.(yikes!) We met allot
of good people, some of which we really liked to spend time with, but it
cost us allot of money. I eventually got to the point of being tired of the
alienation by my family & friends every time I brought up the subject of the
business, and the polite way they tried to kindly ignore me. I also grew
tired of the tension that was created between my wife and I by the lack of
success verses the time and money involved.
I would have to agree that there is a certain amount of brain
washing involved, Hence my five year stint. They make it awful hard to quit
because of the loyalty that you are expected to have for your upline, we
finally escaped by moving out of state. (that's not the reason we moved
though.)
I must admit not all the experiences were bad for me, some have had
a positive influence. My people skills are better and it has brought me more
confidence in myself. Although I would never consider joining Amway again.
For those of you who think that Amway is the best opportunity there
is, keep an open mind and keep looking! Thanks for letting me vent.
sincerely,
*****
Mon, 13 Dec 1999 Subject: Amway I guess time will tell. If your right they may immortalise the site as a truly visionary person. On the other hand you could be immortalised like the guy who predicted there will be no need for more than 20 computers in the world. Freedom is a wonderful thing, millions have died for your right to say what you think but some of them would have also fought for the right to run against the odds even 1 in 10,000 or even 1 in 100,000. ***** Australia
Tue, 14 Dec 1999 Subject: Finished your Amway story... Russell, Thanks for posting this. I read every part of it, even the epilogue. I'd like to share with you some of my reactions, if you'd care to take the time to read them. If not, just hit the delete key now, and I won't be offended- or, for that matter, any the wiser, either. First, some background. I'm the son of longtime distributors- somewhere in the neighborhood of 18 years now. For that reason, if you wind up reprinting this in some way, I hope you won't use my name or pertinent details, as my parents are still earnestly striving to "build the business". In that time, I've seen some moderate gains, but certainly nothing worth nearly 20 years of effort. My father has made much more progress (financially and emotionally) in his career- computer programming, ironically enough. He never claimed to like his career. Several times- when, I suspect, the mind control was stronger than at other times- he claimed to hate it. However, it did apparently make an influence on me in spite of his diatribes. I'm currently in the computer field, working as a technical support consultant. I'm also not an Amway distributor or a Quixtar IBO, and have no plans to do so. Actions, you see, do speak louder than words- I saw the computer industry give my Dad a high middle class income, nice rural house outside Cleveland, education for my sister at a private Midwestern college, and two late model vehicles. Amway, meanwhile, has produced a few fairly decent vacations and a perpetual tax shelter. That said, I do take exception with a few things in your story (though, on the whole, I agree with it). Amway is not necessarily zero-sum. One can make a profit, small as it may be, selling product- just as in a legitimate business concern. We could probably debate for hours on Keynesian vs. Smithian economics and whether or not global net worth is constant (I happen to believe it's not), but gains within Amway do not necessarily come at the expense of other participants. Of course, the business plan you outlined can only result in disaster, as outlays for initial motivational items far exceed anticipatory profits, even long-term. Especially disturbing is the de-emphasis placed on moving product. This aggrevates the situation I noted above (after all, that's profit), and accelerates the demise of the distributor's business. Also, my association with distributors has not been as uniformly unpleasant as yours. I've found some to be real human beings. Others, to be sure, were even worse than those you encountered. When I was making the recruiting rounds as a recently engaged college student, I was introduced to one slimeball who, in addition to a hard-sale motivational speech, topped it off with some good ol' fashioned homophobia: "You got a girlfriend, right? 'Cuz we don't want any f*****s building this business! Hee, hee, chuckle..." Now, I happen to be heterosexual, and I hold some of the same political and religious beliefs as the stereotypical Amway distributor. However, I was greatly offended by the comment, and stared at the guy for a minute or so until he uncomfortably shuffled off and I was escorted by my Dad to meet some other folks. This is obviously a worst-case scenario. There are all types, I guess- they're not all drones driven by the almighty dollar. Some have serious personality flaws on top of that. Thanks for reading. I've got other stories, if you're interested- I've seen a lot in 18 years. But, in any case, thanks for your time.
Wed, 15 Dec 1999 Subject: Finished your Amway story... Great stuff - have a friend who's involved and am trying to research all I can about Amway to possibly "help" him - if nothing else to "plant some seeds" in his mind that it may not be as great a thing as he's been lead to believe. Thanks for your time and effort in sharing your story;-)
Wed, 15 Dec 1999 Subject: My reply to your Amway page Hi: I am interested in learning about the Coca-Cola Breakmate program with Amway and why it fell apart, what was wrong with it, what went wrong and why and was Coca-Cola and/or Amway ever taken to court by dealers, one another, etc. Can you send me in this direction? Thanks
Sun, 19 Dec 1999
Subject: Your Amway story (part 3)
Dear Mr. Glasser:
My name is Mark ***** and I am a ruby in Amway from Gainesville,
Florida. My e-mail address is ***@***.***. I must tell you that I
found your website on our business especially interesting and entertaining.
Maybe it has something to do with the fact that we are about the same age
and that both my sponsor and my best downline distributor are professional
computer programmers, as you are (although I am certainly a neophyte when it
comes to computers).
It seems to me that the main criticism that you leveled against our
business relates to the cost of the system (tapes, books, seminars,
conventions, etc.). You also took issue with the frequency of our meetings,
and the integrity of our leadership. I want to briefly address these issues
from my perspective as a distributor who has been in the business since
1997.
Any business venture requires upfront investment before one starts
earning money, and Amway is no exception. However, compared to the costs of
other businesses, the investment required in Amway is very modest. A
typical retail franchise business costs more than $200,000 to start, with
overhead of thousands of dollars per month. Even a smaller venture has
significant investment requirements that exceed those encountered in Amway.
For example, I ran a lawn service while in college. My outlays for lawn
service equipment were more than $4000 before I saw my first dollar from a
customer. By comparison, it cost me less than $300 to get started in Amway,
and, because I took it seriously from the beginning, I was making a
four-figure monthly income within 60 days of joining. As a person with a
college degree in business, I can't think of any other businesses which
offer a lower start-up cost or faster profitability for those who take it
seriously. The educational system costs me roughly $200 per month, on
average, and this is my only business expense. However, my business does
roughly $30,000 per month in sales, and I have yet to meet anyone with a
non-Amway business of a similar size who can boast of similarly low
expenses; everyone I know with a traditional business has expenses (rent,
salaries, etc.) that are much, much higher than my expenses in Amway.
With regard to the frequency of meetings, one must keep in mind that we
are in a real business. In other businesses, the time commitment is much,
much greater. Anyone with a job or traditional business spends much more
time at their place of work than an active Amway distributor would spend at
meetings.
Regarding the integrity of our leaders, I would like to point out one
thing that distinguishes Amway from traditional business and jobs. In
almost every other business system, a leader can prosper without helping
others prosper. A traditional business owner can figure out how to get the
job done with fewer workers, fire a percentage of his staff, and increase
his profit by having to pay less money in wages. Moreover, I have a close
friend who teaches classes on computer programming, and he is excellent at
it. Nevertheless, whether or not his students get jobs upon completing his
classes, the students still pay for the class and my friend still gets paid
for teaching it. In other words, in traditional business environments, the
leader can prosper whether or not the people he leads are successful or
not. In Amway, this is not so. You can only reach any success level in
Amway by helping downline distributors succeed. If I sponsor someone and he
doesn't succeed, I make no money for sponsoring him. We cannot prosper
without helping others prosper. Thus, any Amway leader will go to great
distances to help his downline succeed; I know several people in my upline
who are doing just that right now for me. I know that I constantly think
about how to help my downline distributors reach their goals. I seriously
doubt that most traditional corporate managers lie awake at night thinking
of ways to help their subordinates succeed. I look forward to hearing your
thoughts on these matters I brought up.
Merry Christmas and Happy New Year.
Very truly yours,
Wed, 29 Dec 1999
Subject: Further thought on Amway
Mark,
I'm sorry it took me so long to get back to you; I'm so out of the
habit of answering mail these days and it took me a while to compose a
response.
Before I say anything else, I want to let you know that I appreciate
the tone of your letter greatly. I can appreciate that you are trying
to start an open and civil dialogue, as opposed to the numerous
letters I get from distributors who only want to swear at me or
predict my miserable future. To me, that says a lot about you right
away.
> It seems to me that the main criticism that you leveled against
> our business relates to the cost of the system (tapes, books,
> seminars, conventions, etc.). You also took issue with the
> frequency of our meetings, and the integrity of our leadership.
I agree to this as a fair and accurate statement of my position.
> I want to briefly address these issues from my perspective as a
> distributor who has been in the business since 1997.
>
> Any business venture requires upfront investment before one
> starts earning money, and Amway is no exception. However, compared
> to the costs of other businesses, the investment required in Amway
> is very modest. A typical retail franchise business costs more than
> $200,000 to start, with overhead of thousands of dollars per month.
> Even a smaller venture has significant investment requirements that
> exceed those encountered in Amway. For example, I ran a lawn
> service while in college. My outlays for lawn service equipment
> were more than $4000 before I saw my first dollar from a customer.
I have a difficult time picturing what sort of lawn equipment costs
you $4000. A quick internet search indicates that you can get a good
basic lawnmower for between $80 and $500. Did you need several high
end riding mowers for your work?
> By comparison, it cost me less than $300 to get started in Amway
As you are undoubtedly aware after reading my web page, the so-called
"getting started" costs are not what I am interested in. It is the
hidden perpetual cost of staying "in" the system, which you discuss
later, that is of real interest to me.
> , and, because I took it seriously from the beginning, I was making
> a four-figure monthly income within 60 days of joining. As a person
> with a college degree in business, I can't think of any other
> businesses which offer a lower start-up cost or faster profitability
> for those who take it seriously.
As a person with a college degree in computer science, I don't think I
could stand to live on a mere $1000 a month. But I'm not trying to
belittle your business; I think your experience is unusually good, based
on the letters I've received.
> The educational system costs me roughly $200 per month, on average,
> and this is my only business expense.
Have you been to a "family reunion" yet?
> However, my business does roughly $30,000 per month in sales,
This may sound impressive to you, but it is next to meaningless to me.
Knowing how an Amway business works, I interpret it to mean that you
and thirty downline each buy $1,000 worth of stuff each month. The
checks that they write don't get sent to you, but to the catalog that
you shop from, and they in turn give you a kickback. Without knowing
just how big that kickback is, all I know is that you and your friends
are buying a lot of expensive stuff.
Now, if you were to show me a profit statement, say, your schedule C
tax form, then we might have something to talk about. I would also
need to know how much of your monthly check is being redistributed to
downline, since that's not really your money.
> and I have yet to meet anyone with a non-Amway business of a similar
> size who can boast of similarly low expenses; everyone I know with a
> traditional business has expenses (rent, salaries, etc.) that are
> much, much higher than my expenses in Amway. With regard to the
> frequency of meetings, one must keep in mind that we are in a real
> business. In other businesses, the time commitment is much, much
> greater. Anyone with a job or traditional business spends much more
> time at their place of work than an active Amway distributor would
> spend at meetings.
Your point here is that Amway costs less, in terms of both time and
money, than either holding a job or owning a business. My point has
to do with expected payoff in return for that time and money.
Consider the lottery. It takes almost no time at all, and it costs
very little. You can buy a ticket every day, for a total yearly cost
of $365. Some people actually make money at it. It is a fact that
many people today regard the lottery as the most direct path to wealth.
So why don't I buy lottery tickets every day? Because when you factor
in statistical returns, the payoff sucks. It's like walking into the
gas station every day and trading a dollar for fifty cents. The
chances that you will win a jackpot in your lifetime are close to nil,
and the chances that you will spend more than you make are a virtual
certainty. Exchanging a dollar for fifty cents doesn't cost you much,
but it costs even less not to play.
A few people "play" Amway for a relatively short time and get a large
payoff. A much higher percentage play for much longer and wind up in
debt. I say most people shouldn't play.
By the way, did you happen to read my argument about success rates?
> Regarding the integrity of our leaders, I would like to point
> out one thing that distinguishes Amway from traditional business and
> jobs. In almost every other business system, a leader can prosper
> without helping others prosper. A traditional business owner can
> figure out how to get the job done with fewer workers, fire a
> percentage of his staff, and increase his profit by having to pay
> less money in wages.
In one sense this is simplistically true. In another sense, it really
isn't. A traditional business owner can do what he wants with his
employees, but just see how prosperous a business will be without
paying the employees a regular salary. If they tried, they might find
themselves facing a nasty confrontation with their friendly state Wage
and Labor Commission. By analogy, who is Amway accountable to?
Making little or no money through a distributorship is the rule, not
the exception.
An employer can cut benefits and lower wages all he wants to. But
then again, an employee can walk out and find a different job. This
is a blade that cuts both ways; try running a business when no one
will work for you. If you want to talk about cutting staff, then
you're making the very meaningless statement that the employers do not
help people who don't work for them. But let's look at it from your
side: how helpful is Amway to the 50% of distributors who quit every
year? Even most businesses don't have a turnover rate that bad.
Think about this: a person scraping by on minimum wage will make more
in two days than the average Amway distributor will pull in a month
($87, last I remember).
> Moreover, I have a close friend who teaches classes on computer
> programming, and he is excellent at it. Nevertheless, whether or
> not his students get jobs upon completing his classes, the students
> still pay for the class and my friend still gets paid for teaching
> it.
Now you are confusing an education with a salaried position. A
teacher who is paid BY the students to help them learn a skill is not
at all comparable to a boss who pays his employees to use those
skills. As I mentioned before, a boss who can't guarantee that his
employees can make money will soon find himself out of business, and
most likely slapped with a lawsuit to boot.
> In other words, in traditional business environments, the leader can
> prosper whether or not the people he leads are successful or not.
> In Amway, this is not so. You can only reach any success level in
> Amway by helping downline distributors succeed.
This is a dubious claim that is used far too often. A highly
successful Amway distributor does not need to help his distributors
"succeed" in any strict financial sense; he only needs to make them
support his business.
To take an extreme case, suppose a distributor somehow manages to
recruit 500 people who, despite having no desire to recruit others,
happen to personally consume $1000 worth of overpriced goods a month.
This person would do extremely well, despite the fact that the only
"help" he's provided is giving these people a venue to spend money.
An exaggeration, right? And yet, with a scant .01% of distributors
going diamond, it's not such a bad analogy. One could make a
convincing case that the diamond income has to be built on the backs
of the unsuccessful -- in fact, this is my perspective on the
business.
> If I sponsor someone and he doesn't succeed, I make no money for
> sponsoring him. We cannot prosper without helping others prosper.
> Thus, any Amway leader will go to great distances to help his
> downline succeed; I know several people in my upline who are doing
> just that right now for me. I know that I constantly think about
> how to help my downline distributors reach their goals.
I respect your stated desire to help people. I do not doubt that your
intentions are sincere. Despite these intentions, I continue to
maintain that Amway contains two types of people: those who lose money,
and those who make money off of the losers.
> I seriously doubt that most traditional corporate managers lie awake
> at night thinking of ways to help their subordinates succeed. I
> look forward to hearing your thoughts on these matters I brought up.
> Merry Christmas and Happy New Year.
It's too late for me to wish you a Merry Christmas, so I'll just
settle for wishing you a Happy New Year. I hope we can continue this
discussion.
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